1. I have to read my comments again to see where this is coming from.
2. I am not playing any games. Please stop assuming I am.
What is depicted here is sexual assault, sexual coercion, and abuse. You have it backwards. If people were taught they would know this is not rape. Some of the ones claiming it is rape thinks attempted rape is rape. My information comes from a rape crisis counselor and a few others. I use the legal term as that debunks rape in Jinx. While you can see it as rape but it is not.
You are dismissed and attacking people saying it is not rape because they understand rape and this story. You are saying “see rape or be uneducated”. That is wrong. You are dismissing the it is sexual assault pov and trying to make that view look like it doesn’t see any abuse because you think they are ignoring the rape you see. That is wrong.
If you know they interpreted the story and themes differently why are you trying to make them look uneducated and wrong. They are right from the legal perspective and from the actual story details.
I'm not saying it's NOT sexual assault or that it's NOT sexual coercion or that it's NOT abuse. All of these things are happening. Yes, those are the more specific terms. I do not take issue with people pointing those things out SO LONG AS THEIR INTENTION IS NOT TO DOWNPLAY THE SEVERITY OF WHAT IS HAPPENING. Because the truth is people DO have a hierarchy of what they think constitutes "real rape" vs. stuff that can/should just be dismissed as either not a big deal or even as entirely consensual. I am concerned with their mindset towards these things and how it may impact them and the people around them if they were to ever find themselves or someone else in such a situation. THAT is what I'm principally concerned with, and THAT is why I find it weird to split hairs over the specific language being used for what happens to Dan throughout this Webtoon. I am concerned that because some people are, for whatever reason it may be, refusing to acknowledge it as rape, that perhaps they are coming to that conclusion because of the element of coercion/because Dan "agreed" to Jaekyung's terms. Not because they want to specifically term it as you are defining it. Or, worse, that they're coming to that conclusion because Dan grows to "like" what's happening, or because he falls in love, or because Jaekyung treats him nicely sometimes...
Not everyone believes this but me personally I think there is a spectrum of "right" and "wrong" when it comes to interpreting art. All artists have their intentions when making their art, their themes they want to explore. And all stories only contain so much evidence of certain interpretations that can be claimed before you're beginning to make a stretch about what is or isn't happening in them. Besides that, like I said, I'm not meaning to insult people's general intelligence when I say, someone who reads this and comes to the conclusion that there's not rape/sexual assault/sexual coercion/abuse/etc must not have been educated. I am speaking specifically, again, about the tendency for American sexual education in particular to be wholly inadequate in properly teaching people about these topics with, again, the assumption that people are interpreting the events of the story as NOT being rape/sexual assault/sexual coercion/abuse (another reason to just call it rape: it's fucking easier than typing all this shit out over and over again).
I'm once again asking you which law you're specifically citing anyway. American law? Korean law? What is YOUR working definition of rape and how does it differ significantly enough from sexual assault that the term ought not be used altogether?
Like instead of just saying I'm wrong, why don't you supply me with the specific story details? I don't claim to be perfect. I was reading the Webtoon with a close eye and I'd like to think myself generally pretty good with reading and interpreting things, but I might have missed something. You tell me specifically why you think that this is sexual assault but not rape, what evidence from the story proves this, and why you think this is a meaningful distinction to make when it comes to day-to-day conversation of this topic.
Also earlier you said something about how many actions fall under non-consensual activities or something like that. So you understand what we mean when we say “umbrella term” then, right? I was/am using rape as an umbrella term here. I mean again I don’t see any meaningful distinction between the word rape and the phrase sexual assault, you will really have to enlighten me on that one, but like, yeah. That’s why I was like “oh! that’s weird and problematic” seeing you, amongst others, dismiss it as being rape altogether.
hm, i can see where you’re coming from, but the thing is i feel like anyone can see the author is showing the (many) noncon scenes in a graphic and sexual light that is supposed to be arousing. is the relationship romanticized? i guess we’ll have to find out next season. but as for the noncon, its clearly sexualized and made to look hot and thats what gets to me.
Yo, you blocked me or something? I’m asking you to give me a counterargument or “report facts” as you say you’re doing (you’re not, when you say that someone is wrong on their interpretation of the text/their interpretation is lacking or ignoring evidence, you are making an argument for a different interpretation of the text that you think is more correct). I want to know how you’re seeing this and why. I’ve explained myself thoroughly.
That’s fair, I can’t argue against that at all, really LOL. I just learned the term eroticized rape yesterday, I didn’t really have a term before for how to describe how…well, yeah, the rape scenes are made to look sexy.
But to me personally even despite how explicit they are and, yes, how eroticized they are, it’s hard for me to really like…feel that what’s happening is sexy, knowing all the circumstances around what’s happening each time, y’know? Even as someone who enjoys (FICTIONAL) rape/non-con scenarios. Unless I completely turned my brain off, which I did later on the more the Webtoon became Stupid, I could not personally stop thinking about how fucked up the situation was, I just felt so awful for Dan, man
But I think this starts to raise questions about how to depict these types of things in the first place. I’m not saying the author is right by any means per se (especially if it’s really the case that they genuinely believe they’re just creating merely a toxic relationship and not an abusive one full of rape djfhfh) but it’s also like, I guess I’m wondering, do you think it’s wrong in all cases to explicitly depict a rape scene? Or is it just in this instance, because it’s eroticized? For me there’s an extent to where I’m like, I kind of like that it’s explicit, because it shows exactly how violent Jaekyung is—it doesn’t beat around the bush about it. We know precisely how awful he is, we see how his abhorrent, controlling behavior of course extends to the bedroom. But at the same time we of course could’ve just gotten the aftermath and experienced a somewhat similar effect, maybe an even more intense one (because then what exactly happened would’ve been left completely up to our imaginations as readers, and that can provide its own type of horror).
To expand on this more because I’m realizing things about myself and how I read these things—I think many things can be true at once, and also, that just because the author Intends something or Does something doesn’t necessarily mean that they will automatically be Successful at doing that thing in the text.
For me it is both true that the rape is made to LOOK erotic AND that it’s not ACTUALLY erotic. There was an incident with a certain animation that I think is similar to this one, in that people were critiquing how the character’s sexual assault was being portrayed. They thought it was being romanticized and all that stuff. And out of context, yes! It does very much look that way. Of course I eventually went to investigate though and, similar to with this Webtoon, the context BEFORE that scene was so horrific that it made the actual scene feel even worse and not sexy at all to me (not in an “the author handled this badly” way but in a “the author handled this very well, actually, and has thus made me feel sufficiently uncomfortable and disgusted by the events on screen” way).
So to me I’m like well, it’s not great if the author doesn’t recognize what they’re doing, but at the same time, to me they haven’t done anything wrong (in the beginning, at least) with regards to the portrayal of rape. They may have intended it to be sexy but I don’t find it sexy/I find it very difficult to find it sexy, because I know too much about the characters and the context in which the assault is taking place to just turn my brain off and enjoy it as something sexy. Not only that but Dan of course is constantly reminding the reader of how awful it is for him, before, during, and after the experience. We see how it’s impacting him long-term. It’s just hard for me personally to find that sexy at all.
If we got like zero context to all this stuff or we didn’t see a “natural” progression to where we are now, with Dan becoming increasingly malleable to Jaekyung’s will due to the continued abuse, that would be one thing. But it’s like. I know too much LMAJDHDHFBD
It’s the same way that this author can intend to use the rare instances where Jaekyung is “nice” to convince me that he’s not irredeemable and I can just not believe them because they’re doing badly at it. The same way a certain other author can supposedly intend to show that a character is gay but can leave no real evidence of it, again, failing to convince me (and making me doubt their so-called intention altogether). It looks sexy but 9 times outta 10, it doesn’t actually Read as sexy.
lol you’re good. i actually have close friends who love super dark and twisted fiction, so we’ve talked about this and it really does come down to the portrayal and atmosphere of a story. it gets a little complicated to explain but i’ll try my best.
so for me, i have read dark stories like killing stalking and though it was intense and awful, it never felt as though it was supposed to be seen in any positive way. the intention is made clear without the author even having to say anything. but with Jinx, things feel different: the noncon is drawn out in a erotic way, the author will put little sparkles or colors floating around when something “cute” happens, and the atmosphere gets very lighthearted and silly at times and it doesn’t even feel like the last chapter Dan was terribly abused, like it never happened or its not a big deal.
as for the explicitly of the noncon, i think it depends on how it’s portrayed. i’m not sure if you've ever read Ouroboros but it’s another dark story about a kidnap/rape victim and their trauma. it has explicit scenes but i never once felt like the act was meant to be hot. so it’s definitely possible to do an explicit rape scene but not make it erotic.
sorry if that made no sense, it’s difficult to put into words!
No no you’re making perfect sense and I agree with you! Haha I wanted to make sure we weren’t having a fundamental disagreement because there would be some people who are like “no you can’t/shouldn’t depict these explicitly at all” and that would’ve had to be a whole other discussion but nah I agree with you completely, the framing and atmosphere contributes a lot to these scenes and how they’re ultimately received by an audience. Like I said I can’t argue that the scenes aren’t meant to be hot, that would be me. Lying and/or not having eyes You can see how much more detailed and shiny everything gets during those scenes and then of course focusing on the genitals instead of y’know. Dan’s face or something (and even then it could be focused on the damage Jaekyung would realistically be doing but then THAT starts circling into trauma porn, which is another thing that’s…shaky).
Killing Stalking is an interesting one to bring up though because I mean, I haven’t read it in a while honestly so I can’t say my memory of it is super intact, but it felt like certain scenes in there were kind of drawn to be sexy. I don’t know why I’m thinking about that one scene where they’re in the bathroom I think? But in which case I’d say the same thing of like, yeah, it might look that way but with the added context it doesn’t necessarily come across that way/it doesn’t feel as ambiguous as it could be to me personally. I think there’s a degree to which there’s like…a spectrum of right to wrong when it comes to this and part of it will have to do with audience reception/interpretation. Because, speaking of Killing Stalking, we both know you as an author can go out of your way to depict something perfectly and still have the audience come at it in a completely unintended way (a la shipping Yoonbum with Sangwoo, finding their bond to be genuinely romantic).
AGAIN NOT SAYING THIS AUTHOR IS HAVING THEIR INTENTIONS MISREAD by their own words it seems they think they’re merely writing a toxic relationship (they are, it’s just that. it’s also much much much more than that) just that audience reception and author intention are/can often be completely different and for a variety of reasons…
LMAO yeah i agree with you. i do think that framing is majorly up to the author, but also i know that even if the author were to perfectly show that something is wrong and not appealing, there will always be some people that perceive it differently. novels, webcomics, shows, doesn’t matter, there will always be a different interpretation since that’s how stories and art work.
and tbh it has been a hot minute (years) since i finished killing stalking so i may be wrong lol. but i do remember it being mostly horror based and not focusing so much on the sexual aspects.
i also wanna say, personally, my view on Jinx would have been different if it was like just a PWP. those types of reads are purely for smut purposes and while i don’t typically enjoy noncon or dead dove, its a whole other vibe when its like “oh this is just porn okay”. versus when there's a whole story being advertised and getting the reader emotionally involved, i think “what is the endgame here? what kind of story are you telling? does the plot and characters actions make sense? is the atmosphere consistent?”
at the end of the day though, i know authors can write or draw whatever they want and i don’t wish harm on them nor readers that enjoy the content (even if it squicks me out of existence). i WILL always judge the content itself though, but that’s probably a given lol.
YESSS THIS. I feel like a lot of discourse surrounding the depiction of taboo/dark themes wouldn't exist or be as messy as it is if people stopped to ask themselves whether or not the work is meant to be taken seriously or to be pure entertainment. I'm not saying you can't criticize porn or anything like that but the expectations there are completely different from a story that is taking itself seriously and meaning to explore something the author finds meaningful. That stuff is for just that; entertainment. People generally know and understand that when they're going into it, it isn't something they're going to continue carrying with them after they're done with it.
So similarly to you I wouldn't feel any type of way about Jinx if it were a PWP indeed. There wouldn't be much to analyze 'cause it would've just been pure jack-off material. I would've completely suspended my disbelief and expectations for good and responsible storytelling. It's part of why, to a degree, I think I'm still offering some levity with regards to the rape...because like. The author is just not serious about those scenes. They should be but they aren't. They're meant to be there for people to get horny over more so than to really contribute to the story and its characters and its overall themes in any real meaningful way.
Alas. It wants to be taken somewhat seriously and it wants to be taken seriously as a love story specifically when it...could've been great if it Weren't trying so hard to be that, and as such, it suffers for it, and risks perpetuating turbo weird shit for it.
As they were able to tag me I didn’t block them. I have a real life and that comes first. I find how they respond was concerning and sus. I wanted to read everything over again.
To address the issues with Aka's comments.
---
I understand their concerns, and I want to clarify my position. My intent is not to dismiss or invalidate the experiences and feelings of those affected by the story. I fully acknowledge the emotional impact that "Jinx" can have on readers, especially those who have experienced abuse or trauma.
My focus on terminology stems from a desire for precision in discussions about sensitive topics. Using accurate terms helps ensure that conversations are clear and constructive. However, I recognize that this could come across as detached or unempathetic to some people, especially in the context of emotional discussions. It is simply not the case.
It's essential to validate the feelings and experiences of those who feel impacted by the story's content. I hope we can continue to engage in a way that respects and acknowledges everyone's perspectives.
---
**Addressing Aka's Main Post:**
"Aka's main post stated, 'I need to see the story to completion before I make any final judgements.'
-From other comments, it seems this isn't accurate.
, 'But the fact that I am seeing several people in these comments trying to argue that what Jaekyung is/has been doing throughout this Webtoon WASN’T rape is deeply, deeply concerning to me.'
-This does not accept other logical perspectives and makes them wrong without addressing the substance of those viewpoints.
"The statement, 'That is the gross abuse of power being used to coerce someone otherwise completely unwilling to have sex with you—that is rape,'
-depends on the details and circumstances. In this case, it is sexual assault."
"’Some of y’all aren’t talking about this as if it is, some of y’all aren’t applying nuance to this for the sake of having a worthwhile conversation.' -This seems like a judgment and a lack of understanding of other people’s comments.
"It’s genuinely scary to me that some of you seem to be unaware of the precise nature of what is going on here,”
-implies making others feel wrong for having a valid standpoint."
"'Not that you’re reading the Webtoon, but that you don’t seem to be understanding it. It’s emblematic of many cultures’ poor sex ed and poor attitudes towards sex and consent. Because I don’t think anyone who has been educated enough should be able to walk away from this being unable to distinguish between rape and actual, consensual sex, especially when it is as clear-cut as it is here.'
-This suggests others are uneducated for not believing "Jinx" includes rape, which is disrespectful. Their comment makes it binary (rape or consensual sex) where it is not binary.
"'I DO have to worry about how you guys would react to hearing someone in your real life in this kind of situation, or, and I hope it is never, ever the case, YOU being in this situation. Would you excuse it? Because you “agreed” to it?'
-This is provoking an emotional reaction and suggesting that differing perspectives mean excusing abuse, which is a strawman argument.
The first comment and other comments dismisses differing perspectives, making them wrong without addressing the substance of those viewpoints.
**Aka's Comments to Me:**
"'Are you a bot?'
This was disrespectful and an attempt to discredit me.
"'And don't answer me with any logical fallacy shit, I just want to know whether or not to waste my time responding to you.'
-This showed condescension and that they have read my other comments to other people.
"'Your replies are robotic and lack humanity, so I had to check. Because it's very weird to reply to some of the things I and others have been bringing up with an "erm, actually, you're committing xyz logical fallacy."'
-This is rude and dismissive. It also goes against reality because many people calls out other people.
"'I will address some of your other arguments later, but I have to get across how psychopathic you sound when you argue this way.'
This is an ad hominem attack, a baseless personal attack. What arguments?
"'You're not making yourself look good, you're not making your arguments look good, and you're not making other fans of this Webtoon look good.'
-More baseless personal attacks.
"'If you think it's fallacious for people to care about how an argument is presented—yes, it is. Sorry. That's how humans work. That's why we have Pathos, Logos, and Ethos.'
This dismisses the importance of logical consistency and what I am doing.
Tell me, if I wanted to recommend or talk about this Webtoon to someone, do you think it would make much of a difference if I said, "This Webtoon features rape" vs. "This Webtoon features sexual assault?" “
-yes there is a difference. Someone with a sex ed would know this and not ask it.
“Or even more specifically, since that's the name of the game for you,”
-baseless accusation. What game?
“"This Webtoon features sexual coercion and a wildly imbalanced power dynamic between characters, resulting in a toxic and abusive relationship"? “
-some one with a sex ed would know the question to that followed is a profound yes.
“ Tell me, if someone close to you, a friend or a family member, told you that someone touched their genitals without their consent, but nothing else really happened, and they expressed their discomfort and feeling of violation would you go out of your way to split hairs about whether or not they were sexually assault or raped by the legal definition? Or would you do your best to acknowledge their feelings and comfort them and proceed from there?”
- this is no reason to be said. It was wrong to do this. It is a strawman argument too
“So in this situation where rape/sexual assault/sexual coercion/sexual abuse are synonymous, interchangeable, what REALLY is your purpose in distinguishing between how people are referring to what's happening?”
-someone with a sex ed would know they are not synonymous or interchangeable. Rape and sexual coercion is a form of sexual assault but they are all different.
“Is it to make a point about severity? Because no one here is talking about the law. “
-I am and it is showing it is not my opinion. I am saying something factual.
“ What do you call it when someone penetrates and ejaculates inside of you without your consent? “
-this is rape but that isn’t in Jinx. By saying that is rape does not say that equals to rape being in jinx. That actually debunks rape in Jinx.
“Because even with the strictest laws defining rape in America, that would fall under it.”
- no. That is false.
- “Of course you factor in Dan's "choice" in the matter and the fact that they're two men and things get shaky but like, seriously. “
-that is disturbing. One it is his choice, not his “choice” and second they being two men don’t change anything. What is the point here?
- What is your actual point”
That shows my points are not acknowledged.
"'You aren't even bringing up any real counterarguments, for one, just saying that I'm wrong and that I should focus on specific issues at hand.'
-I have not said they were wrong in a view point ; I am distinguishing between rape and sexual assault factually. Now I don’t have a counter arguments when I am not arguing. I am just presenting facts.
This taken in with the examples I've provided above, of the real life fucking implications of what you're doing here, makes you look psychopathic. “
This is trying to make the truth wrong by attacking me with baseless accusations. What is the goal here. Trying to be right in an opinion even if it harms others and makes them wrong to have only one valid opinion. This is a story not real life that is why I said that one comment that was vastly misunderstood. This person is deflecting. “1. Never said that acknowledge the dynamics means an explicit endorsement. I even prefaced my statements saying that it's okay if you're into this shit + enjoy it as long as you understand what it is you're engaging with, and that I myself enjoy this shit.”
-if they were not busy attacking a version of me that doesn’t exist and making me an opponent they would see what I said was acknowledging what they said. It was an attempt to get on solid ground and show I understood them
“. 2: “Fuck off with the semantic game ….] There is no game. Baseless accusations. I am defending the people they make wrong by trying to force rape to be the only valid opinion. Those people saying it is not rape is accurate. Those people saying it is not violent that is their opinion and they could explain it. Their opinions are valid. However those two statements are not the same. It is a strawman argument to make those two statements the same thing.
3: “Granted. “
- people can present people who is closed-mind real and substantive reasons why they know that what Jaekyung is doing to Dan doesn't constitute rape but they would dismiss it like they are doing with me. Aka is dismissing differing perspectives and it is thir opinion that they not actually seen any real ones that is dismissing others vaild opinions. Furthermore I came to the conclusion that people who are viewing this as rape may just have not been taught that sexual coercion is sexual assault and non-consent, has a scope to where not everything non-con is rape.
4: “I know different people are interpreting the story and its themes differently.“ yet they are dismissing everyone’s perspective than their own and saying they are uneducated as they show they are misinformed on the subject.
“s. I do not take issue with people pointing those things out SO LONG AS THEIR INTENTION IS NOT TO DOWNPLAY THE SEVERITY OF WHAT IS HAPPENING”
Firstly, distinguishing between rape and other forms of sexual misconduct is not the same as dismissing the severity of those actions. An attempted rape is indeed a serious form of sexual assault, but it is legally and definitionally distinct from rape. Acknowledging this difference does not minimize the harm or wrongness of the behavior; it is simply about being precise with terms.
Would you call a square a rectangle just because they both have four sides? Exact terms matter to ensure we understand the distinctions between different concepts. I am done vs I am finished. But refer to the same thing and used interchangeably. But to be more specific, It is cakes, bread, and food are done, we use finished when we eat something.
“What is YOUR working definition of rape and how does it differ significantly enough from sexual assault that the term ought not be used altogether?”
It is not my working definition. This is not their opinion vs my opinion. This is them vs facts. Don’t ask for my opinion or my working definition as you will not get it. I am objectively reporting. This person is dismissing what I say and trying to change my comments for me to argue with them.
“Like instead of just saying I'm wrong, why don't you supply me with the specific story details? “
While it is not rape, I accept people viewing it as rape. Where you are wrong no story details will show how you are wrong. The people who you are making wrong isn’t a story.
My friends and I have read the story countless times and analyzed many parts.
“You tell me specifically why you think that this is sexual assault but not rape, what evidence from the story proves this, and why you think this is a meaningful distinction to make when it comes to day-to-day conversation of this topic.”
Should I try to talk to them? with how they are assuming making me their enemy and accusing me of baseless claims?
There is a meaningful distinction between the word rape and sexual assault. Rape is a form of sexual assault but not all sexual assault is rape.
“dismiss it as being rape altogether.”
We are not dismissing it being rape. Your opinion it is rape when it is not rape. It is odd how you are dismissing others to be right about having rape in the story that doesn’t have rape.
I’m asking you to give me a counterargument or “report facts” as you say you’re doing (you’re not, when you say that someone is wrong on their interpretation of the text/their interpretation is lacking or ignoring evidence, you are making an argument for a different interpretation of the text that you think is more correct). “
- that is using strawman arguments here. I am objectively reporting and standing with facts. They are the one saying people are wrong for not seeing rape. They made it sound like they were uneducated without understanding them. This person just deflected their behavior on to me. I am not making an argument for a different opinion of what I think it more correct. Don’t make it about me. What is actually happening is I am telling them why those people have valid points and the facts are on their side and the are in the wrong but make sure them wrong or uneducated for not having their opinion.
“ I want to know how you’re seeing this and why. I’ve explained myself thoroughly.”
Would anyone be open or interested in talking to some that is treating people like this? l
**Clarification on Terminology:**
Again, there is a meaningful distinction between rape and sexual assault. Rape is a form of sexual assault, but not all sexual assault is rape. Distinguishing between them ensures clarity and avoids misunderstandings. It is not about downplaying the severity but about being precise. Terms matter to ensure accurate understanding.
**Addressing Strawman Arguments:**
‘Interpreting the events of the story as NOT being rape/sexual assault/sexual coercion/abuse' is incorrect.
-It is about using the correct terms. Saying it is not rape but sexual assault and abuse is accurate and not what they just said. Their perspective on this is not dismissed, but imposing it on others as the only valid view is concerning. How they are attacking me is concerning.
**Respectful Engagement:**
I hope we can engage in a respectful manner, acknowledging different perspectives and maintaining precision in our discussions. Understanding and empathy are crucial in these conversations.
It's why at the end of the day I can't even find it in myself to hate the story itself all that much. I can only really be disappointed. I don't know if or really feel like it in and of itself is doing Great Harm to people merely by existing, as I said, I'm more so worried about how people are receiving it and how a lack of understanding of sexual coercion due to our (America's) poor sex ed is playing into that, so I can't blame this Webtoon alone. But I do feel the Webtoon is just...wasted potential, gone stupid for no good reason.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/sexual-coercion#examples
“ Sexual coercion is when a person pressures, tricks, threatens, or manipulates someone into sex. It is a type of sexual assault because even if someone says yes, they are not giving their consent freely”
Examples of sexual coercion
The page gives 8 examples. The last one is clarified to be rape. The rest is sexual assault.
https://florinroebig.com/sexual-assault-guide/
Is Sexual Assault Considered Rape?
Rape is a form of sexual assault. However, not all forms of sexual assault will be considered rape. Rape is penetration of the anus or vagina, in any capacity, with any object, that is unwanted or forced.
Types of sexual assault include any unwanted sexual activity:
attempted rape
fondling
unwanted sexual contact or touching
forcing victim to perform sexual acts (i.e. oral penetration or other forms of sex)
rape: unlawful sexual intercourse or penetration of the victim’s body by a body part or object
Fondling isn’t rape. Attempted rape is not rape. Rape is a form of sexual assault. They are different terms with different meanings.
Why did you send this comment? Why do you respond to people's comments in general? If not to have a conversation or an argument then why? Because you still haven't really addressed anything I've said. And when I say "really address" I mean, as I've already asked, give me YOUR definition of rape, give me YOUR definition of sexual assault, tell me HOW these things are significantly different enough that it is IMPERATIVE that I AND EVERYONE ELSE ALSO make the distinction while talking about the events of the story, give me YOUR EVIDENCE as to how I came to the WRONG CONCLUSION about the FACTS, which you say I'm fighting against here, USING DETAILS FROM THE STORY. TALK TO ME LIKE A HUMAN BEING. PLEASE. I AM BEGGING YOU. I AM trying to be respectful and I'm finding it incredibly difficult not only because I disagree with you but also because you genuinely keep giving me non-answers. How can I engage respectfully with someone who continuously tells me I'm wrong about my interpretation of this story and its implications, but then does not actually supply counter-evidence, even when I more explicitly and politely ask?
And also, I know you're using ChatGPT for sure now, likely the 4o model, right? I've used it a lot myself. So I know you've copy-pasted our conversations into it and asked it to analyze my responses and come up with counter-arguments and name whatever logical fallacies I may or may not actually be falling into based off of certain parameters you've fed it. Likely, you've been asking it to write it as if it were you, and it succeeded at times and failed at other times, so you had to manually go in and change and add things yourself to make it sound more human.
That's part of why "your" language (the jumbled mess of pronouns used to refer to myself and yourself, the broken, grammatically incorrect syntax interspersed with more correct, albeit robotic syntax), and why "your" own arguments are becoming increasingly disordered and non-specific, and why "your" statements all sound exactly the same almost every time, no matter who you're responding to or what has actually been said or not said before. ChatGPT has a hard time understanding and utilizing context, especially when you overload it with too much data at once. I've seen how it breaks down with my own eyes. I've also seen how weird it can be with pulling out specific quotes from a piece of text you've fed it and asked it to analyze. I know how it will, as its done here, pull out the middle of a sentence rather than a full sentence, how it will invent quotes altogether. But the biggest giveaways are the topical headers in your responses, which are surrounded by asterisks. This is of course how ChatGPT organizes topics in its responses when you've asked it to do multiple things at once, such as asking it to analyze different parts of a text, or analyze the text in different ways. It bolds the headers using those two asterisks as is custom in HTML and it also tends to make that text bigger than the following text.
Either you give me your next response in your own words, or I ignore you from now on. You've made the mistake of chatting with someone who has extensively played around with ChatGPT's several models, for the express purpose of analyzing how it works and what it is capable of. I have written a paper on it. I have seen right through you and you can't fool me anymore.
"Rape is penetration of the anus or vagina, in any capacity, with any object, that is unwanted or forced."
Hm. So I do recall Jaekyung repeatedly forcing an object (his penis) into Dan's anus in a way that was unwanted and forced. Several times. Throughout this Webtoon. Please tell me what ChatGPT thinks about this, I'm very interested in knowing!
yeah omg!! its funny you say that since a friend of mine who read this had the same response. like the potential was there but it just fell flat. honestly i feel that way about a lot of BLs currently but thats another conversation.
but yes, it’s really frustrating when people say nothing is wrong because Dan “signed away his rights to say no” since someone could get trapped irl by thinking they have no power because they signed a contract. i think there was also similar discourse about this in the Fifty Shades of Grey fandom.
alas all i can do is sit back and shake my head in disappointment. maybe the author will surprise us all next season with something amazing, but i won’t be holding my breath.
btw sorry if this sounds weird but do you have a social i could follow? our discussion was just so refreshing and you seem like a cool person! of course it’s totally fine if you don’t want to tho :)
Nothing to add for now, the time, space, and energy I would need to detail all of my thoughts on all this exceeds every limit presented to me here. I need to see the story to completion before I make any final judgements. It did some things that I thought were genuinely interesting and praiseworthy at first and then began to fumble the bag with stupid plot devices and, well, mishandling the things it’d been doing well at first.
Look. If you’re into rape/non-con that’s fine. If you’re into the toxic shit that’s fine, so long as you understand that that is, in fact, what you’re reading. I’ll self-disclose and say I, too, enjoy those things (in a purely fictional context). But the fact that I am seeing several people in these comments trying to argue that what Jaekyung is/has been doing throughout this Webtoon WASN’T rape is deeply, deeply concerning to me. Usually I would blame the author for framing things in such a way as to make things ambiguous for reasons that have little to do with the story. But it is not the case here. Jaekyang is a wealthy man with status and power, physical and otherwise. He used those qualities from the get go and all throughout the Webtoon in order to get Dan, someone in a ridiculously desperate financial situation and with no leverage of his own to have sex with him. That is the gross abuse of power being used to coerce someone otherwise completely unwilling to have sex with you—that is rape. And it is a real and horrific thing that happens ALL the time in reality.
So don’t come at me with “technicalities” about this shit just because it’s fiction or whatever the fuck, because some of y’all aren’t talking about this as if it is, some of y’all aren’t applying nuance to this for the sake of having a worthwhile conversation. It’s genuinely scary to me that some of you seem to be unaware of the precise nature of what is going on here. Not that you’re reading the Webtoon, but that you don’t seem to be understanding it. It’s emblematic of many cultures’ poor sex ed and poor attitudes towards sex and consent. Because I don’t think anyone who has been educated enough should be able to walk away from this being unable to distinguish between rape and actual, consensual sex, especially when it is as clear-cut as it is here. I DO have to worry about how you guys would react to hearing someone in your real life in this kind of situation, or, and I hope it is never, ever the case, YOU being in this situation. Would you excuse it? Because you “agreed” to it? Would you relentlessly blame yourself like Dan does? Would you really be able to articulate your experience to get the help you need? Would you be able to respond well to someone else in this situation?