^^ you can also see the difference in the selflessness that jo has toward ian in which he makes everything about ian while on the other hand tj is on the more selfish side.
sorry for all the replies but lastly, im not defending anything or being a rape apologist at all, and im not saying that any instances of implied SA are good because it's not. but i js think in this situation not everything is so black and white, there's misunderstandings and mistakes etc.
I didn't want to make even more responses and it notifies everyone in the conversation, my responses were to both you and Plumy. That's a quote from Plumy's reply.
Yeah and I explained why I think it's SA and not just dubious. If he continued after Ian tried to tell him they should stop, that could probably be taken as dubious, we could say that Jo didn't understand. But the moment Ian passes out, that should be a clear sign for him. But instead he took advantage of it. And it's not a consensual kink kind of situation. If it was why wouldn't he admit to it the morning after? Why would he say that Ian fell asleep while clearly making the difference between falling asleep and falling unconscious in his thoughts?
I purposefully only answered the chapter 52 scene parts of your replies since I felt like it's spreading misinformation. But let's get into the other stuff now then.
When did TJ ever manipulate Ian? The car crash wasn't manipulated, it was orchestrated by Jamie. There was never any indication of this being faked. TJ was literally glad that it was him in the car and not Ian. Ian knows about everything TJ did.
Jo's manipulation doesn't have malicious intent? If you say he manipulates Ian because he doesn't want him to leave... That might not be malicious but it's not a pure reason either. Jo "knows what he wants", he wants Ian and he's determined to make that happen. Of course he believes that's a good thing for Ian, I feel like that's why a lot of readers take his side, Jo believes that and makes you believe that too. But Jo's selfish and possessive. He barely knows Ian but has an image of him in his mind, loves the idea of Ian being a good person that was in a bad environment that he can 'fix'. It's like he has some savior complex. He always acts like he's the one that would 'rescue' Ian (he's 'good' for Ian, fixes his light, prevents Ian from meeting TJ 'the bad guy', Ian doesn't have to sleep around because Jo 'will always come', pretends to be his boyfriend so the other guy would fuck off (I liked that one, but it does show the pattern and Ian could handle it on his own)), he's attracted by his vulnerability (like when Ian told him about the murder), he dictates how Ian should change to 'improve' his life (by hanging out with him and not sleeping around).
When did TJ SA Ian? But since I probably know which scenes might be misinterpreted that way, the better question is when did TJ LET IAN BE SAED?? He's literally the one trying to prevent that. He would never let Ian be SAed if he could help it. He was the one to try and get Ian clean, he was the one picking him up from David and saying that David will never see Ian again.
"you can also see the difference in the selflessness that jo has toward ian in which he makes everything about ian while on the other hand tj is on the more selfish side." I'd say it's... the other way round actually.
Everything Jo does is about himself pretty much, like I already explained with the saviour complex. "Ian: There are people who live like that. Jo: Not me." why did he insert himself in the situation, in a discussion about Ian. He pushed his own lifestyle onto Ian. "The Ian I've seen is gentle and kind. And people like that need to be around good people" - he meant himself, that Ian should be around him. When Ian tried to cut contact, Jo went "It ends just like that 'cuz you said so?". Would someone who puts Ian's wishes before his own say that? Wouldn't he let Ian make this decision? Jo didn't want to end the relationship so Ian can't decide to end it. Jo meddled into TJIan's relationship that he knows nothing about, disregarding Ian's frantic state and "Sorry, I'm in a bit of a rush-" because he was determined not to let them meet. "I'm not going to avoid anything", is him trying to assure Ian but the way he worded it is about himself, not Ian. Jo obsessed about what Ian was doing and with whom when he didn't come to the dinner. And what did he do? Avoid the subject because he didn't want to be pushed away and he didn't want an answer that he won't like. Jo was the one constantly having dreams about Ian and TJ fucking, even tho he never even got the confirmation that they do. From that whole scene we can conclude that he wasn't worried about Ian's safety, he was anxious that Ian was with TJ. He was angry at himself that he couldn't do anything in those dreams. And Ian isn't in danger in those dreams, he's just with someone else. It wasn't not about Ian's wellbeing, it was about Jo being jealous. "I've never realized how exhausting being jealous is". He also decided not to tell Ian that TJ apologized to him. And when he finally told Ian and Ian's reaction wasn't what he wanted (Ian didn't condemn TJ, he said "We're just so used to taking care of things that way...") he changed the subject instantly ("Huh, the reaction I was looking for was something more..."). He only told Ian this because he wanted to get a specific reaction, not because Ian deserved to know. It was for his own sake. "Don't dismiss that consideration of his" - that's when Jo decided that he wants Ian for himself, basically using TJ's current decision to leave Ian out of the gang stuff to make sure Ian won't go looking for TJ because he's possessive, which he admitted in his internal monologue in that same scene. It's not genuine advice that's supposed to keep Ian happy, it's advice that gets Jo what he wants. Even Jo himself admitted that the advice wasn't because of his kindness. When Ian said he can't sleep and can't take sleeping pills, Jo got angry and said "I don't believe you" because he didn't like that Ian sleeps with other people, he disregarded Ian's problem because he didn't like the way Ian went about it. Even when Jo promised Ian he won't leave him, he left because his pride got hurt. Ian was in a bad spot and Jo left him alone because he couldn't handle not being the centre of attention. Chapters 51/52 also portray that well. "You're so good, sometimes it makes me angry". "This is amazing", he's got carried off, so focused on his own pleasure that he disregarded Ian's protests and the fact that Ian was already staggering and unresponsive. And he went on about himself, "Don't do this with anyone else. Only do it with me from now on-". In the sex scenes he did whatever he wanted and manhandled Ian just as much as TJ does if not more. And he did it more and more, by chapter 52 he said "It was hard holding back all this time". I could go scene by scene to point out those moments but the easiest example to notice is the theme of condoms in their smut. Jo never got enthusiastic consent for coming inside like TJ did, the first time he abided by Ian's decision to stop by the time they have no condoms, the second time he conveniently forgot and only remembered when he already came, the last time he only told Ian "Did you know we're all out of condoms?"
While we can see that TJ was by Ian's side through thick and thin. He was there when Ian was an active addict and everyone else left. He didn't take advantage of Ian's state at the time, just continued taking care of him without complaining while Ian was lying and riling him up. He showed up when Ian was unconscious in David's bathroom and got him safely home. He threw away his career to get them into the gang together and tried to make it seem like his career wasn't a big deal so that Ian wouldn't feel guilty (didn't work, but he did try). All that time he never made it about himself even though it was hard on him too. When he was scared and ordered Ian to be unable to leave for Malibu (reminder that Ian was never supposed to fall and break his leg) he was distraught and tried to apologize. Ian didn't want him to apologize so he didn't. He wasn't the one to use the excuse of his fear and make the situation about himself, Ian did ("You were afraid I might die"). Ian used the situation to relieve some of his own guilt. When Ian got desensitized to violence and caught TJ told the lawyers to get him only two years in prison (2nd degree murder is 15-25 years and as the lawyers said, it would be hard to argue self-defence since Ian was too methodical, which means there was intent to kill) in which Ian could resocialize and learn clean work, while he personally dealt with the people who wanted to harm Ian. He built a mansion in California that has space for Ian's hobby. When Ian said he doesn't want to have sex, TJ put physical distance between them and changed the subject. When Ian decided to cut contact with TJ, TJ walked away. Sure, they argued but in the end TJ left. When TJ cooled off he returned because he knew Ian didn't actually want it and he was right about that. When he saw Ian with Jo, he left without a fuss again. He didn't contact Ian again, respecting the decision. When the car crash happened, the first thing TJ felt was relief that the assassination attempt was directed at him and not Ian. He told Ian to stay away from the gang because he saw Ian slipping into his old cold-blooded self. Would he rather have Ian's company? Probably. But he wants Ian to be safe and not slip further into his desensitized state more. And in the smut scenes he often checked on Ian verbally, making sure that he wants to continue or that he's feeling good. TJ is selfish sometimes but overall I'd say he thinks about Ian more than anyone else, and often more than he thinks about himself.
not reading this sorry, it's rlly not that serious
Welp, it is long. But I guess now I know why you're spreading misinfo... So to correct at least the most obvious and clear ones: TJ did not fake the car crash and he didn't 'let Ian get SAed'
well like i said i hadn't read the chapter in a while about the car crash. and second literally in the most recent chapter tj literally went to go pick up ian after he was drugged and assaulted and he knew he was there and did nothing to stop it except for locking him in a room instead of trying to get him actual help. my overall point isn't to pick at TJ or jo or anyone which i think ur misunderstanding and i'm not trying to spread misinformation either, my opinion on chapter 52 is my opinion and i respect your opinion aswell, nobody is a saint in this story and i'm done arguing bc it's rlly not that srs yall js don't touch grass
nobody is going to die just because i have a certain opinion on something, it's not "spreading misinformation" it's called interpretation. these are also fictional characters
There is interpretation and there's stating things that contradict source material as facts. "he pulled out and finished himself off" and the "with tj to go even after he passes out" and "Ian never said or implied for Jo to stop" that you agreed with were simply false, that's what I labeled as misinformation. And so were "he found out that ian would be with jo and so they faked the car crash" and "let him be SAd". It's not a problem of different interpretation when it's clear in the webtoon. That's the parts I pointed out as misinformation and provided context for. The rest is interpretation, me responding to your opinions and asking questions, just discussion. I know you're just commenting but op literally asked "So everyone is spreading misinfo?" and you replied "jo finished himself off" which implies that he pulled out when Ian passed out which is misinfo, someone is just gonna repeat all that like it's fact again and another person is going to be confused.
"Let" implies that he allowed it to happen without doing anything to stop or prevent it. And he did. He tried to get him clean, he locked him up like you said yourself. Ian wanted to go to rehab because of TJ, that's actual help. And it's clear from that scene that he knew it's something TJ wanted. How would TJ know where Ian was? There's 0 indication that he knew. When David called TJ and told him where Ian was, TJ came. And then he confronted David and joined the gang to stop this. I think you're underestimating how hard it is to force an addict to get clean.
I only started sharing my more in-depth interpretation of the characters' once you replied to me with your opinion on them. The part where I analyze their behaviour is obviously my reading of it (literally included phrases like "let's get into the other (not misinformation about chapter 52) stuff now then", "I think...", "I'd say..."). If you didn't want me to respond with my opinion then you didn't have to start that topic. I just commented on sth you said with how I see it.
girl i rlly dgaf anymore u keep putting words in my mouth based on what other ppl said and u are just way to srs abt this, goodbye
I'm just checking back on my notifications. I need to ask, what manipulation thing are you talking about Jo finger injury?
Don’t take my words too seriously cause I also kinda forgot. It’s in the raws I believe, TJ Stan’s were saying that Jo was being somewhat manipulative by showing his hurt fingers (I forgot if he did that on purpose or not)
They meant chapter 53. It's not explicit, it's an interpretation. Probably also depends on if him not having it in chapter 30 for a moment is a mistake or not (idk if it was already in the physical ver or not). If it's not it would imply he bandaged it again after he noticed Ian worrying about it. And I think he never told Ian that they didn't break the fingers on purpose? I'm not sure about that tho.
No I meant if Jo broke his fingers or injured it on purpose, or it was an accident and he just showed it to Ian. If he bandaged it because of Ian worrying over it and not because his fingers needed it, that’s somewhat manipulative I guess(?) or really more of attention seeking/gaining sympathy, idk. Cause while manipulation and attention seeking is similar, they aren’t the same.
Yeah not too sure eitherZ
He injured himself by accident when Yangji (TJ's right hand man) wanted to scare him. They were fighting and Jo fell on his fingers.
Yeah, he didn't need it anymore but bandaged it anyways. I mean... I'd say that purposefully seeking sympathy to get attention is manipulative, but that's how I see it (well, and others that said it was manipulative). And to be clear, there was no internal monologue where Jo would explicitly state "I'm doing this to gain sympathy", so that's interpretation.
@ayfct I see, ok thatbwould make sense but even after 30 & 32 (the scene with 53) he hasn't used it to expoilt nor was he wearing it after it. So it's a bit of a stretch since in his monologe he says it feels fine bit maybe should leave the bangage on. Mmm Looking back at it after he does think that he remembers Ian saying to have dinner at his (Ian) place and then Jo starts wrapping his finger. It still fails because he doesn't even wear it afterwards.
@Chickenbutt it's not manipulation though maybe wanting sympathy points? Since even kids like to do that but its not manipulation i keep seeing ppl say. Plus Ian was told Jo was in the hospital by Chris and Alex is the one that told him what happen when Jo said it was nothing. Did you forget that Jo was jump and broke his finger when fighting them, why would anyone, but a psycho person, break their fingers purposely
Yeah, it might be a stretch but it's also something I could see him do. If it was only one time I probably wouldn't think as much of it but both 30 and 53 makes me raise my brow. If you mean 32/53 he does wear it! It's a bit hard to see but he has it on.
Not my part of the reply but... I feel like he changed his tune after he understood the situation - that Ian felt bad about it and that it was connected to TJ. Like him deciding to not tell Ian that TJ apologized and not explaining that it was an accident like he did to his friends (still not sure that he never did, I don't really want to reread all of their scenes in multiple chapters but I don't remember him doing that) and then the chapter 53 situation if we take that into consideration. But it might be also because we got panels of Ian worrying and it influenced my perception?
To be fair Jo does seem kinda psycho haha the rabbit and guns and the blank wide-eyed expression he makes sometimes. But that wasn't one of those situations yeah haha even his friends were in disbelief that he could break his fingers on accident
This story is way too complex for peas. There’s more to it than who hurts who, who’s the bad guy and who’s the good guy. I don’t think we should label the cliche “red”, “black”, “green”, “yellow” flags. Everyone thought Jo was a good guy and some were already threatened by his presence since they biased another hottie.
All over Twitter I see both stans of Jo and TJ being petty with each other. I don’t give a shit but don’t go and slut shame Ian because he’s not exclusive to your favorite hottie. He doesn’t belong to any of them.
Isn’t life so poetic with all these people war-guing with each other. Jo isn’t a “good guy”, he’s now in a position where he needs character development, especially after that SA and some form of manipulation (the scene with then injured fingers). But he isn’t evil. Nor is any of the other main characters.
TJ and Ian already have some character development to do. They’re pretty much the same since a decade ago, but their surroundings and time has moved, only the two of them can move forward together. It can’t be separate, they are entwined with each other no matter how much others wanna deny. They’re family, they’ve only had each other so naturally they’d be like this.
Oh no! They’re toxic, what ever shall I do? Calm down, we have some more seasons after this. Jo has a chance, but I really doubt it would be the same amount of love (be it platonic or romantic) Ian has for TJ. I just hope the author doesn’t use Jo as a catalyst, it would be sad that Ian and TJ only finally get together because of Jo. Lazy writing in my opinion!
And those stupid little shits can get off my DMs!