Ah shit you're all right. I'm sorry, I was still harboring a little hope that Yoonbum could be saved but I guess not. Your explanations do make more sense so I will gladly retract mine!
To me the only way he can be "saved" now is if he realizes he's being manipulated and feels betrayed to the point of driving a knife into Sangwoo's eye, like he once fantasized about doing. Don't say he's too obsessed to do that... cause I'd say he's too obsessed *not* to do that, and Bum killing Sangwoo in a fit of obsessed stalker rage would be like poetic justice.
Honestly, i don't think he IS being manipulated, i believe Sangwoo really IS in love with Bum in his own twisted way. I can agree that Sangwoo is manipulating Bum in that he is trying to bring out Bum's dark side so he'll do things that will bind him to Sangwoo, but i don't think that Sangwoo has ever manipulated Bum's feelings for him by ACTING like he reciprocates them, it think he actually DOES reciprocate them. The only person Sangwoo has allowed to live for more than a day after capturing them is Bum, he even SPARES him during the whole "I'm leaving!" scene (has Sangwoo shown patience with ANYONE up to this point?). Sangwoo calls it their "anniversary" when he brings that girl there, so i'm pretty sure that them killing her together is literally him proposing to Bum in his mind. He even comes when Bum bites his finger during the sex scene while as he'd seemed pretty aloof to the sex with that girl up to that point. The biggest evidence to Sangwoo's love (to me) is the scene where Bum rubs their semen together and tells Sangwoo he wishes they could mix like that and Sangwoo literally blushes. That, and a pretty good scene to bring up is when he basically starts crying when he thinks that Bum escaped during the part where the cop was searching his house (he feels so betrayed that he wants to kill him and then breaks down and says "lets be together forever" when he sees Bum still inside the house). The only reason i bring all this up is because you seem to want Sangwoo dead because you feel that he's lying to Bum and manipulating his feelings, but i think that evidence clearly points to Sangwoo literally COURTING Bum, that's why he stopped making Bum wear his mother's (sangwoo's) clothes, because he no longer felt the urge to hurt him. He even starts making Bum wear HIS (sangwoo's) clothes. I think it was last chapter where Sangwoo got crazy jealous when Bum fell on that fat guy's lap as well, he even gets jealous.
For that to happen Sangwoo would have to seriously piss off Bum and withdrawal all physical advances towards him. I can't see that happening because Sangwoo wants to keep Bum around. Still uncertain of what to call the attachment Sangwoo has for Bum but I think he' continues to be intimate with Bum because that's what Bum wants. By doing things like kissing, saying he loves Bum and allowing Bum to play out some of his fantasies, Sangwoo is not only ensuring Bum will stay but he's also feeding into Bum's obsession. Bit of a spoiler here for those who haven't seen 19. From the flashback we see that Bum often misinterprets simple kindness as love. Sangwoo however has gone past showing Bum acts of simple kindness and does things someone in a relationship might do. Right now Bum might think that Sangwoo truly loves him and he's not going to suddenly snap out of it. I think to a degree Bum knows Sangwoo is manipulating him. He knows the true Sangwoo is abusive and that is not something he should accept. But he also is too obsessed over Sangwoo to let the abuse affect him. Additionally from the flashback, I'm assuming Bum started stalking because he longs for closeness to someone. Killing Sangwoo would cease that closeness. Right now I cant see Bum killing Sangwoo as it would end the relationship they have. Who knows how season 2 will shake things up though.
I just replied to the same comment you did and i'd like to point my reply at you as well, if you want to read it you can. Long story short, i think Sangwoo is actually in love with Bum, but doesn't show it in the same we we do.
Even if he loves him in any twisted way, he's still a manipulating, domineering bastard. As crazy as it sounds, Bum didn't even get to "choose his own first victim". It was someone that Sangwoo himself knew and disliked, not Bum. And my bet is he had sex with that girl in front of Bum just in order to provoke him (he got her to talk about her dislike for Bum obviously for that reason). AND he's yet to reciprocate in giving Bum pleasure... Psychotic or no, so far he's been very selfish, self-centered even as a lover...
By what standards are you basing that on? As i said, by OUR standards of love he's lacking, but IN HIS OWN way he's courting him. There is very obvious subtext to every one of Sungwoos interactions with Bum.
Ok, by MY standard he's a manipulating bastard... if that makes you happy. He's not my favorite phsyco lover-boy. I much prefer Tate Langton from American Horror Story (at least he pretends to take Violet's feelings into consideration).
Well, now that we've established that by a normal person's standards a psychotic person's way of loving is lacking... My point was that he loves Bum and that you should be able to see that in the way he interacts with Bum. He doesn't treat ANY of his captives nice, but he treats Bum different. If you try to imagine Sangwoo's standards of love from reading the story you'll see that he's favoring Bum and giving him special attention. One could argue that he's faking it, but IMO it's completely obvious that he really loves Bum based on all the examples i gave earlier. If you can give me an example of when he treats Bum worse than any of the other captives then tell me.
Right now I'm not yet convinced Sangwoo acts out of love. Sangwoo has been manipulating Bum, at least at the beginning, and it makes me question if anything he's done was genuine. I agree with Me on this. It becomes extremely difficult to talk about if the characters love each other when using redefining the standards of love. I see the relationship between Bum and Sangwoo as an abusive relationship, not a loving one. It's a selfish relationship based upon control and submission.
What i'm saying isn't that Sangwoo isn't manipulating Bum AT ALL, its that Sangwoo isn't manipulating Bum about his feelings for him. My argument is that Sangwoo loves Bum, he just shows it in a different (and honestly quite clear to me at least) way. If he was just pretending that he was in love with Bum, then why does he blush during the semen scene and break down emotionally when he thinks Bum escapes only to see him still there. Yes, their relationship is abusive, obviously, no one here is arguing that. I've repeated myself on this point a few times, but, I'm saying that Sangwoo is expressing his love for Bum in the only way HE knows how. You keep saying that Sangwoo is manipulating Bum, are you referring to when he has Bum stab the gay guy in the stomach? If so, that's actually ANOTHER scene in which he favors Bum, bum loses the game that was supposed to decide who dies and Sangwoo STILL let him live and killed the gay guy. As far as Sangwoo not letting Bum choose his victim, its probably because he doesn't want to risk Bum going outside and running away, but him sharing something like killing someone he hates with Bum is probably one of the most intimate things he can do in his mind.
It could be argued that all the instances you mentioned of Sangwoo showing affection were not our of love but for Sangwoo's own selfish wants. (I'm unfortunately in school right now, and explaining it on a phone would be a pain. Give me a few hours to respond) Up until this point nothing Sangwoo has done has convinced me it was because of love.
Okay, whenever you're ready.
Yeah, I bet all abusive partners love the lovers that they love to abuse... yadayada. The point is, sometimes the way a person loves you is not the way you want to be loved. We still don't know what kind of love Bum would have liked to receive and what his ideal boyfriend was like before the Sangwoo fiasco. Sometimes you compromise with the reality and learn to love your lover for who he/she really is, with all the things about them that you'd otherwise dislike, instead f your personal fantasy... And sometimes the reality is just so distant from the fantasy, or the things you dislikeever present and glaring, that you can't compromise.
I've made "peace" with the fact that Bum is an obsessive stalker now murderer. But I don't want to have to make peace with the fact that, even for Sangwoo's sake, he will also become a doormat pushover...
Love or no love, Sangwoo's still clearly manipulating him: could just have brought Bum's uncle or that girl from Bum's high school to that basement. He could have talked a bit more with him to find out if there were any people HE hated, and brought them there without need to let Bum go outside. As for him favoring Bum, ever heard of the carrot and stick technique? Favoring someone can also be a way of manipulating them. And love or no love, Sangwoo is clearly manipulating Bum into becoming exactly what he, Sangwoo, wants him to become: another killer. Why? If he loves him, there's no reason he couldn't move him to another location and keep him forever captive without making Bum kill anyone. But love or no love, making him kill someone is clearly the safest way to ensure Bum won't report him to the police. Besides having a partner makes it less likely for any of his victims to ever succeed in escaping. All in all, love or no love, there are a million practical reasons for Sangwoo to make Bum become a killer. There are very few reasons for that, so far, that would actually benefit Bum (not Sangwoo) if he isn't even allowed to choose whatever person he wants to kill, now.
If Sangwoo keeps this up and never starts treating him as an equal, I'll just keep wishing for Bum to have enough and for that knife to meet Sangwoo's p**nis, if not his eyeball.
Personally i believe that Sangwoo is manipulating Bum to become a killer to keep Bum with him, it gives them a shared secret that neither of them wants out and i view it as another sign that sangwoo loves Bum. It sounds like once again you're forcing your standards of what a boyfriend should be like onto Bum, you act like bum doesn't like sangwoo just the way he is, can you back that up? From what i've seen the only reason Bum wants to escape is for fear of death, he's worried that HE'S going to die, not that sangwoo is going to keep killing. Bum is still in love with sangwoo even after finding out he is a killer.
Believe me when I say, I'm not forcing *my* standards on him when I say he should at least be able to "choose the people he wants to kill"... (and what's wrong with applying my standard, anyway?) And Bum has clearly been struggling with opposing feelings at least until chapter 19: when he first came to Sangwoo's house and saw the girl, his first impulse was to try to help, even though it meant others would find out he had illegally broken into someone else's home. He also clearly did not enjoy it when Sangwoo killed that old man, at the very least he was not happy with being forced to witness it. He loves Sangwoo, yes, but up to chap. 19 he was not all that happy with being forced to witness live and direct what Sangwoo was doing... My bet is even though he wouldn't have exactly "worried" about Sangwoo's killings, he would have much prefered that Sangwoo kept doing it somewhere where he wouldn't have to see it...
Regarding Sangwoo's feelings, I agree with @Jaz. We can't say for sure that what Sangwoo is feeling for Bum is exclusively 'love'. At least, not yet. One way to be for sure of his feelings is if we actually get Sangwoo's point of view. However, it's understandable that people equate that as 'love'. Perhaps, it is nearing to that, but not as in depth. Sangwoo's manipulative nature is probably entangled to his being. However, as I have previously said, those feelings aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. 'Love' in abuse can co-exist. But like what @Fallust had said, it is not in a way that is healthy.
Hello to you all. I haven't kept track of this conversation. But as a response, let me say what my piece previously in this post as a response to @Fallust:
Bum's fear and attraction to Sangwoo doesn't necessarily have to be a 'mutually exclusive' thing. People often separate those two, implying that it is not a possible option. But if we analyze it based from the series, Bum's the fear and attraction for Sangwoo can coexist. But as you said, it's definitely not in a healthy way.
But to reply to this specific comment, I'm reposting a reply of mine to a similar comment in another post (I apologize, I tend to recycle)
What's unfortunate is, now matter how you look at it, Bum's not gonna have a sane mind after all this, even if he does separate from Sangwoo. I honestly think that no amount of therapy could fix him, he was mentally ill from the start. Also, take note that Bum's living conditions in his past wasn't the best, he is poor, I doubt he would have the enough money for therapy bills or medication. I haven't even mentioned that he probably gets raped by his uncle occasionally (if not regularly). If he does escape from Sangwoo, (which i strongly doubt), chances are, Bum will be getting back to THAT life style.
Regarding the murder in Chapter 19. I had a similar discussion with another fan. (I'm sorry, I'm gonna do a repost again hahaha)
Sangwoo has introduced killings to Bum, yes. But with different intentions, in my opinion. If you read chapter 19, at the end, when Bum had done the 'deed', he tells Bum: “..you’ve always been the victim and got hurt and had to suffer…”, “…at some point you needed to let out all that pent-up anger inside of you…”, “…you must have been tired of pretending to be so innocent…”, “…you really suffered..”
Killing may have been Sangwoo's way to release all those pent up emotions. He's been by himself for a long time, perhaps he's seeking companionship in Bum? He's sharing his method of coping (?) with Bum. Because Sangwoo might have found it effective when it was he who was the victim (abuse from father), when it was he who was hurting, when it he who was suffering.
So, I don't think Sangwoo introduced this coping mechanism (? can we even call it that? lol) not because he intends to make Bum a killing machine. But maybe because he wants to share that feeling of 'release' with Bum.
THIS is a very good theory and i hadn't thought of that. very good. you're right that we can't actually verify that Sangwoo loves Bum, that is why i said "i believe" and "its clear to me" instead of "it is canon that". I explained why i believe that Sangwoo is CLEARLY in love with Bum and gave instances in the manga that really made me believe so without a doubt. The reason i initially brought up my point of "Sangwoo seems to be genuinely in love with Bum in his own way" was in response to the original post saying that Sangwoo was manipulating Bum's romantic feelings for him by constantly giving him false hope, which i didn't believe to be true at all and gave reasons why i think Sangwoo's feelings are actually love and not him just faking it to fuck (not literally) with Bum.
I'm about to kill Sangwoo myself at this point. Just leave Yoonbum alone, god damn it!