I've recently heard in a critique video on YT how a good story/character arc is supposed to have a Character that has a specific goal in the beginning but through the story everything that happens leads them on a path towards something they "need" not necessarily "want"
Maybe it's like a storytelling 101, I don't know. But having a character gain exactly the goal they want at the end of a novel/show/etc. that they've been working towards from the beginning, could be kind of boring.
It would only show that the character hasn't gone through any development and everything that happens around them doesn't affect them, making them feel lifeless.
If you want a character that achieves their goal that they set for themselves in the beginning, but still be interesting, it would most likely lead to the revelation that the goal wasn't what they thought it was.
It kind of reminds me of a Manhwa I've read here before where the Red Headed MC wanted to protect her country at any cost. No matter what she did it was inevitable for her country to fall though. At the very end it was only her and a loyal Butler who stayed and it basically makes you think "was it worth it?"
I could try and find it because maybe that would be a more interesting story for you.
Okay, so. My point wasn't the fact that the character's end goal isn't reached - I understand there needs to be obstacles and different things happening along the journey for the story to be interesting. What I was trying to comment on was how many times, the male characters in these stories are given more agency over their plans and actions compared to the female characters, even if the latter is the protagonist. It's things like the male character always being a step ahead of the female one, he doesn't take no for an answer, and in the end it doesn't matter what the female character wants or does, the male character's early goal will be reached (often "getting the girl" in the romance genre).
It's the last bit that shows what I'm trying to say the best: it doesn't matter what the female character wants and does, the male character's goal will be reached. She has no choice, it'll happen no matter what. I do admit that part of this must come from how much of this genre I consume, as well as manwha in general, as this is something that I notice and it can irk me (if I don't turn off the brain for consumption). Like everything, this has nuance. Some stories do this well, some don't. One of the worst examples is that one manwha with a pink or red-haired FL with two or three obsessive brothers, the ML had black hair and red eyes I think. The scene that just ruined it for me was when FL made all these plans to go to a secret market to get something, and when she got there, oops! One of her obsessive brothers took care of it. All of her planning and putting in effort meant nothing, it was taken away just as quickly as it appeared.
Like I already mentioned in my og comment, the series that has so far done it in a very satisfying manner is "I will seduce the northern duke". It shows both of them slowly falling for each other, and instead of Calcion trying to do everything he can to make her fall for him and force her to stay, he cares about what Selina (? Sorry I'm bad with names) wants to do. Yes, this is partly due to how bad he is with feelings, but even then I can't imagine him trying to force her to stay or try to get in her way. It's Selina who has started to question her original goal and what would be best for her, and what she actually wants to do. This is something that I feel like a lot of these types of stories lack.
In my original comment, I meant to express concern for the story to not make the two be of equal standing. In so many romance stories we get presented with "strong, calculative, secretive female character" who is supposed to be on equal ground with another character (typically a man), and wouldn't you guess it, the man is stronger, more calculative, more secretive than the female character. We already saw that she doesn't want to get married in her new role, yet the first prince is talking to the king as if she's an animal to be "tamed", meaning controlled, to what they wish for (marriage to the royal family). He's using her for his plans and isn't telling her what it's for - she's also supposedly clueless about the situation. She also provided him with the information on the og novel quite easily, even if she didn't give up on the details (ie. her future business ventures). So far, we have yet to see her use him to her advantage in the same way he is using her, as I wouldn't call the garden plot equal to what the first prince is probably trying to pull. I want her to witheld actually crucial informatiln that will mess up with some of hiw plans. We don't know for sure yet and will just have to wait and see, I simply expressed concern for something I've noticed happens often.
Sorry for the long response, and thank you for reading + responding. I hope I don't come off as if I'm trying to start an argument as I am not - I simply wanted to expand upon and explain where I was coming from/what I meant.
Ok my bad it seems I misunderstood what you were trying to say originally.
I totally get what you mean. It's extremely disappointing when a FL character starts off as self assured and confident but then does a 180 as soon as the ML comes into frame. Or being described as ambitious and smart but still always being outdone by male characters. I feel like it's authors trying to make the Female characters appealing to female readers but then having no idea what a relationship towards a Male character on equal footing would look like.
It was mainly the reason why I stopped reading Hetero content a few years back because it bothered me so much.
I'm now getting back into it because YT Shorts keeps showing me clips of interesting scenes and I fall for them (￣∇￣")
I sadly do feel like especially Manhwas are bringing in a lot of toxic tropes. Doesn't matter what genre. Maybe it's because they haven't been popular for that long yet.
I don't want to say this is 100% true though, it's just what I personally noticed.
The Manga that got me back into trying hetero settings was Kusuriya no Hitorigoto. The gender roles are quite neutral I would say. The Characters add to each other instead of outdoing each other.
I do hope That Villain's Life, I'll live it Once ends up being good. Fingers crossed for all of us I guess
Yep, fingers crossed. I think the thing with MLs is also due to it kind of being how they've been portrayed for a while, these secretive bad boy types - at least I remember growing up reading shoujo manga and this often being the case.
I understand your feelings on seeing this so much with hetero pairings, sometimes the romance and art can't make up for character issues. I'm not sure if I agree on the toxic tropes with korean manwha specifically, as I feel it to be somewhat equal in other comics as well, whether that be japanese manga or chinese manhua. (Though the chinese ones tend to be most chill simply due to the amount of censorship they're subjected to.)
I personally can struggle reading manga sometimes due to the tropes or language used (ie. reading BL and them calling the one bottoming "wife". No thanks, get out with your heteronormative bs). I enjoy reading RoFan/Romance-Fantasy, but quite often that genre is filled with shoujo manga, whereas I've come to enjoy josei a lot more as I've grown older. I feel like manwha can be a bit more varied in its contents, as not being stuck on either the josei or the shoujo genre. I still read manga of course, though I typically try to stay with GL and BL, specifically the non-smut kind.
There's just a lot of toxic tropes in general in romance, especially in hetero romance & BL. Obsessiveness, controlling, stalking, etc. Honestly, I don't mind them in smut as I'm not going to kink shame anyone, but it's a different story when it's apparent in stories without smut.
If you are wondering about good FL & ML relationships in manwhas, I recommend checking out the one I mentioned already (I Will Seduce the Northern Duke) if you haven't. Another one I recommend is "There's No Happy Ending For a Villainess"/"Villains Are Meant To Die". While the FL isn't meant to be the smartest or anything, she manages to navigate through the story as best she can. I also enjoy her interactions with the true ML. I enjoy most when the story hits you with the realistic aspects of her being in an abusive family and confronting them on it, or when she realises how foolish it is to expect anything from them, even if they've changed from before.
I pretty much agreed to everything you've said.
I think what's apparent is that the popular Manga aren't as riddled with toxic traits like the Manhwas are. When I think back on the popular mainstream BL manga I grew up reading, they weren't as toxic as the mainstream/popular manhwa now.
I can imagine that toxic and non-toxic is being published in the same ratio between Manga and Manhwa but for whatever reason the toxic Manhwas are more popular.
I think it might be the "Redemption Trope" that I've gotten to know through Danmei/Manhwa and maybe that's just what's popular right now.
90% of them are sadly not for me because most of the time a line gets crossed that no redemption arc can make up for so I stopped reading those.
I will definitely check out the one's you've mentioned. I also grew up watching Shounen/Shoujo Anime and then got into Manga at some point. Then I switched to BL and now I'm back to Josei because I'm more interested in them now that I'm older.
I also love Fantasy/Romance and am a sucker for Isekai/Reincarnation and all that jazz
Thank you for the recommendations^^
The thing that always bothers me about these stories is how, quite often, our main characters (typically women) have a certain goal in the beginning of the story yet never reach it, as their opinion/goal gets changed by the men coming to her life and disrupting her plans. I know from reading "I will seduce the northern duke" (spoiler warning for that) that there is a difference between that (female mc's goal gets changed by the men in her life interrupting and/or ruining her plans) and of the female mc keeping her goal as long as possible, mutually falling in love, and now heavily debating what she should do (and the male lead never tried to disrupt her plans, at least so far in the manwha, and is following what she wants to do).
Essentially, I'm tired of stories with female MCs where some of their agency gets taken away by the men in the story. I really hope it doesn't happen here - I'd like it if they were tl discuss the plan together for both of their benefit, OR, I hope our FL in this story will screw with the ML/his plans just as much as he seems to be doing to her. (Ie. Potentially making her to be engaged to him instead of the second prince/current crown prince, and the king supporting this with the idea of "taming" her as if she was an animal to be molded to do what they want.) It's fine for him to be secretive and manipulative, I just want the same from our FL, and see them standing on equal ground. Imo she should be having slightly more power over him from knowing the og novel, and gods I hope to see that happen in future chapters.