It's just two spots a black person was drawn... yall it's not that serious.. im black too ...

Ikr??? ,
they're overreacting ┑(￣Д ￣)┍

Nah kinda see their point now , but yeah opinion matters if you dont find that offensive then good for you!! ^^

It don’t matter though it should’ve never been drawn to begin with

Same, my black-mixed genes should make me more offended than probably more than half of whoever is harping on about this. XD

Let the people stylize thicc Jay-Z lips as they want, it's not that deep.

fr, it’s 2 panels i didn’t even notice- and it definitely not the authors intention to offend anyone, also i just know that the people mad are white as a milk

I noticed his appearance, but I thought it was just the art style, yk like how the artists draws the others "CEO" characters in a funny way like those president's type of meme

True, it feels more like 'westerner stylization' since even the white people are drawn differently.

It doesn't matter if he has a in higher status or if many Mangas have drawn black people like that. Doesn't make it okay and as a black person you should know that(coming from someone who is black).

Exactly

Not everybody needs to be offended by it tho. People factually aren't.
Just because people are usually upset by it doesn't mean you HAVE TO be offended just because you have dark skin too, that's not how that works.
People can call me the n-word and I wouldn't care. People can draw caricatures and I wouldn't care. Offense is taken, not given. And not everybody will be offended by this. Because it's honestly not important enough to care about.

I never once said that you have to get offended. I've been the recipient of racism many times, most of the times I chose not to waste my time on ignorant people. This person is clearly defending this manga for whatever reason. I don't care if not everybody will be offended by this. It's still wrong and I'm still going to call it out. The fact that they're trying to defend blatant racism by saying "well at least he wasn't portrayed as a man with low status" or that many stories draw black people like this is the problem. So yes, from a black person to another, this is wrong, and I'm going to call out the racism and anyone who is defending this shit.

"Doesn't make it okay and as a black person you should know that(coming from someone who is black)." that was the sentence that made it sound like you think people who have a similarity to the character should be offended. If that's not what you meant I'm relieved.

We're not defending it here, we are argueing that this is simply a difference in stylized depiction, similar to how caricatures work in which features are exegarrated. And for Jay-Z lips + chibification there is not much options. Plus, tanned blondes with thick lips who are asian but want to look like westerners are ALSO stylized like this in mangas. So there is factually multiple options for this depiction. Racism being an issue is not something we can decide as it is an intentional thing. And we do not know if the author is racist. Especially not since the simplification due to the chibification is so heavy and not only black people being subject to this stylization (again, asian chicks with lip fillers and thick lipstick are also stylized like that).

It's fine that you're upset and want to say it, but we can factually not call this racism since there is other explainations to it and it honestly a bit much for two tiny, unimportant panels tbh. You gotta try and calm down a bit here. This isn't a personal attack, just a stylized drawing that's over-simplified. If the author meant to be racist, he/she would have depicted the character much different for sure, not just made his lips a ring in one tiny chibi panel.

no shade but how is racism only intentional? i’ve meet people who say wildly racist things and then claim that they are NOT at all racist. i absolutely think racism can be based in ignorance and even unintentional. it happens to me literally all the time lol.

No worries, I know this might be a bit of a not so familiar explaination nowadays. The term has almost lost it's meaning the past few years. Plus, I like that you ask! It's rare these days. Usually people start yelling and insulting immediately. :'D

To make it simple, that is the definition of the term. And the fine line that seperates it from ignorance. Tho people are usually not interested in finding the difference nowadays.

"DEFINE RACISM
- prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.
- the belief that different races possess distinct characteristics, abilities, or qualities, especially so as to distinguish them as inferior or superior to one another."
All words imply intention behind the action.

Unlike what Buzzfeed and co tried to make people believe these past few years by misusing the term so often; racism is not something people from the outside can simply label something, it's the intent of the person that counts. And it needs to be looked at in detail and most importantly; the person who is the supposed racist needs to be asked and their words analyzed to see if it's intentional or not.

vvvvvvv
Think of it like this: You write with people in a thread like this and you both disagree with one another. You CAN go ahead and asume the other person being angry and 'triggered' while typing their text, but the reality might just be them calmly sitting there and typing a reply that simply disagrees with you.
You might THINK you know their emotions, but you honestly don't and can only know if you ask and investigate.
(This is probably the best example I can deliver to make clear what I mean. I hope it's understandable?)
^^^^^

One of the somewhat recent examples would be: College students in the US calling a girl racist for liking to wear kimonos > meanwhile the japanese people who got asked if it is racist if westerners wear kimonos and yukatas said 'hell no, we love seeing people like our stuff!'. (Which is oddly enough also a good example for the reverse of this mess; people being racist while trying to shame innocent people for being racist simply because they do not have the ethnicity that's related to what they like. The irony~)

I've also seen people do stuff like what you mentioned (the famous: I'm not racist, I have black/jewish/etc. friends! - to name the most popular), so these things are a case by case thing to judge. Tho these people are usually very obvious (they are not the brightest after all, which I still think is a requirement for being racist to begin with XD).

But really, people who speak out of ignorance should not be titled racist. They should be titled ignorant since that is what they are (and since that is the reason behind it all). It's better to talk to those people and tell them calmly that what they said or did might potentially be seen as racist by some people. If you then tell them why, they will usually engage with you (rarely in a negative tone, if you kept your post friendly) and likely even fix their mistakes now or in the future, if there were any (I have seen many people scream racism were there was none too, so this is to be taken into account as well).
It's kinda like teaching a puppy; yelling and beating it will not give you good results, but being calm and understanding of their side while explaining it definitely will.




Just to clarify btw:
For this particular situation in the manga you'd have to ask the author's side to be sure. But this (people writing/saying stuff) isn't something that can be compared to these types of art depictions since there is more factors coming into play for the art than for people saying racist or seemingly racist stuff.
It all depends on the details of each case, and for this one here the factors for it being simply a style choice without knowing of the west being offended by such depictions is much higher than intended racism/wanting to make fun of people. (Again, women with thick lips of asian or caucasian decent are also drawn like this as chibis by many artists in the mangaworld, alongside just chubby or actually obese characters too.)
Artwork of non-asians is always very over-done, like caricatures to make clear they are not asian. That paired with the over simplification of chibi artstyles can easily result in what we saw on the page, without it having racist intentions.

to know someone’s intentions though is a difficult thing. someone could be lying. people who are vehemently racist often lie in order to be more socially acceptable. they also might be ignorant.

when i was eight years old my friends called me over to say my mom was at school to pick me up. this made no sense because i hadn’t seen my mom in well over a year. besides, they didn’t even know what my mom looked like. but they obviously knew she was black! they pointed out a random black woman to me and ran away laughing. looked nothing like my mom btw (besides the fact that they’re both black lol). the kids were around seven years old. i can almost guarantee that their intentions were harmless. they weren’t trying to be racist. one of them is one my close friends still almost 20 years later. but was that action racist? i know how i feel about it, but im curious to know your thoughts.

That's true. Communication is key and actually conversing with the person. That's why I think most people don't care anymore and just treat their assumptions as hard facts so often nowadays; asking and confirming takes time and effort, and many people don't care for that.
And true! There's a TON of liars among the racist people who've basically learned how to weasle their way around being blatantly racist. Especially online I see that shockingly often.

I've heard and seen THAT kinda bs alot of times too. Just really annoying and senseless. And very dumb. If people look similar, that's one thing to me (there's groups of general facial shapes in every race that people can say look the same if they don't know the people and remember their detailed facial structures) but the random stuff has me so done and just facepalming nowadays.
I think with kids it's often that they were raised that way and find it normal and acceptable (because what momma and daddy do is always okay, right?). At teenager age they should slowly notice due to internet and other influences it's not normal tho.
Tho then again, we have to remember kids are dumb. I literally had a kid argue with me that a moose and a reindeer look the same and there was no difference between them....first time I was quite literally speechless and utterly confused at how someone can be so dumb. :'D

Judging this without the kid's side is tough tbh. As I said, the other side needs to be questioned to make sure. Tho then again, children joking about this stuff is something different from teens or adults doing it.
I think the interaction you had can be called racist in how it's percieved, but I doubt it was meant in a racist way since a 7 year old, to me personally, doesn't have the mental capacity yet to develope that mindset and intent but rather it's taught to them. That's a greyzone to me which is treading the line VERY heavily and I'd definitely need to at least ask the kid: Do you REALLY think this lady looks like the mom of this person?
If the kid says yes, and the person factually looks nothing alike and the kid would admit to knowing such remarks hurt your feelings; then I'd say it's heavily tilting towards racism, but again; kids are being taught things, it's usually not their personal ideas.
An example of this is people who teach their kids to ride horses to beat the crap out of them with a whip and spurs. If the adults teach them it's to be done that way; they will NOT question it and simply do it. Kids are very impressionable. Especially when it comes to parents, siblings or other adult authority figures. I have heard some things in which it was clear the kid wasn't certain about something being right, but still did it because: the older family members know what's best, right?
I wouldn't call the kid racist, since I don't think he's aware at that age. But if he was and still did it, then I suppose it's fair to call it racism. But even then I doubt a 7 year old has the capacity to understand the magnitude of racism in the first place. To kids things are not as difficult and detailed as for adults, that's why I firmly believe racism is something adults bring into a child's life. I for example wasn't ever questioned about my bloodline until a teacher in school asked me where my parents are from for me to have darker skin (which was baffling, nobody ever cared about my skin colour, neither in the village I was born in or in the town we lived in - and I went to 5 different schools in my life, mind you, so there were LOTS of opportunities for it).

Whether his intentions were there or not isn't all to important now tho, it doesn't change that you were hurt or maybe just annoyed or disappointed. If you cared at all, that was always my dad's go-to emotion, haha.
Just remember: There are plenty of people who said racist stuff they had heard from their family and mindlessly copied and later learned what it meant to others and felt awful about it and turning out to be kind people with just shitty influence at a time in their life.
There is a difference in being racist and people percieving something as racist. Both are rightfully upsetting things, but they don't necessarily go hand in hand with each other. I think your friend might be proof for that, since I doubt you'd be friends with someone that's blatantly racist for 20 years, right?

Damn lots of debate.. my take as a Caribbean person that's balck... you can educate and all its fine, I'd you feel some type of way
Not everyone wants to offend you... as for this artist.. I think its just the style.. that's all there is to it when they are drawing none main characters, they ain't so pretty and all ...
The person looks okay.. its just a few panels and it's aint nothing discriminating in the comic sooo we all great!

I'm not gonna go back and forth with you, but in no way is drawing black people in racist ways and depicting them as gang members is an artstyle, it's racism. And that's my opinion and I'm never going to change that for some yaoi manga. It's racist whether it was intended to be or not. Never in my comments have I said that all of us should be offended. I'm not offended because honestly I've become desensitized to it since so much asian media depicts black people as such. That being said it's still wrong even though it's not offending me personally. Also, isn't it ironic that you're telling those who are offended to relax, but you're saying that I'm telling other black people that they must be offended? So don't tell how I should react to this. And yes this is "factually" racism. Search up Jim Crow right now and look at the images. And if you genuinely belive that racism can only be intentional, please educate yourself more about this topic. Asians with tanned skin and big lips has nothing to do with this. That's literally a style of makeup.

How in the hell was the artist depicting them as gang members?? It was a person of high rank in a company.
I've explained it to someone that asked, but just because you find it racist doesn't mean it was rooted in that. Racism is an intent, by the definition of the term (dictionary, not Buzzfeed) not something people outside can decide.
Nobody here is trying to convince you to change your mind, we're simply talking about how not everybody was spoon-fed racist stereotypes they need to be offended by and hence not everybody will view this as racist.

And asians with tan skin and big lips have ALL to do with this. I named this as an example that these people ALSO get drawn the same way as chibis, so they have EVERYTHING to do with this conversation since you seem to think the depiction is racist and not a stylistic choice.

Again, racism is an intent, not something other's can blindly label something. Else we end up with people calling literally anything racist, like Buzzfeed managed to make younger people believe in this day and age.
Just because you're offended by something, doesn't mean the person had ill intent. Especially not with all the factors that come into play and there being factual evidence this is a stylistic depiction of thick lips that is used for ALL RACES and individuals that display them for one reason or another.

Also:
"Also, isn't it ironic that you're telling those who are offended to relax, but you're saying that I'm telling other black people that they must be offended?"
Telling someone to calm their tiddies about a stylized drawing is NOT the same as someone saying everybody with the same skintone should be offended by....a stylized drawing. XD
Irony is the wrong word to use here, since those two have not much in common really. I didn't tell people to not be offended, I told them to calm down since it's not something big and serious.
I'm confused btw since you said you aren't offended personally, yet you write that this is offensive. You DO realize people find it obnoxious if you're offended on their behalf, right? because that's what you basically said you're doing here. Nonsensical as it is.
Are you white by any chance? I'm curious now. Because that would be the only reason you're not personally bothered but still write as if you are heavily offended.

That was bound to happen with this kinda topic tbh. X'D
I'm just glad people are able to talk calmly instead of hurling insults and threats at the author. Because that's how it usually goes. (〜￣△￣)〜