why did i even expect otherwise lol

This. This

I can see where you are coming from with your point. So I'll just say this once and not have a back-and-forth with you. You stated your point, now here is mine. Even though it'll be hard for you to fathom what I'll say, I'll still say it.

I'm on the side of love, respect, and treating one as a human being not as a tool to play with. In this story, Cain is the one who provides it.

Of course, artistic-wise, Yahwi and Jooin do look good together. While Cain, on the other end, looks like a last-minute drawing character. Still, this last-minute drawn character knows the meaning of love and respect and that makes him so handsome from the inside that it overshadows his physical aspect. For me, Cain is hot physically btw.

Yes, you might say it is fiction, get over it and move on. But, you need to know that rape, psychological/mental/emotional abuse, and manipulation pointed out in any type of genre are not something that can be considered fiction. It's a real-life issue highlighted in a fictional story of course. But that does not mean that because the story is fiction, rape, or abuse is also fiction.

Whatever the outcome of this story, I just hope for all of them to find happiness. But in my opinion, Yahwi needs a lot of therapy before he can put himself back in the dating market.

i swear u hv a point, u do, but insulting the prson u are tryng 2 get ur point across to is never a way 2 do it, girl. "Even though it'll be hard for you to fathom what i'll say, I'll still say it" ?? r u tryng 2 say ur piece or is this a roundabout way 2 insult my intelligence? i may not write a novel-like post liike u do, but i can assure u, not only can i "fathom" what u just said (do u rlly thnk it's that deep?), i can also write a whole ass discouse on it should i choose to. ur attempt 2 throw a shade at me and disgustingly elevate ur comment like it's some deep literary work is funny to me, honestly. should u hv worded it differntly,i myt hv been inclined 2 respond 2 u respectfully.

bestie i just hate seeing “think of the poor rapist! he’s had a rough childhood!” plot lines, im pretty sure that’s the boat most “jooin x cain” people are. yahwi has undeniably raped and abused jooin.

y'know i wld hv 2 reread the entire thng again 2 see where it is yahwi "raped" jooin. i cant rmmber a sngle time he did,so i wldnt be agreeing on that. f based on what i rmmber,i wld call the whole thng as dubcon,not rape. but i won't deny the abuse part,yahwi did in fact slap jooin. but he is not a rapist,as cain-stans wld like 2 kp making ppl agree on. anyway,the point of my post above is this (actually,the point of all of my posts so far on this manhwa): why can't c-stans jst let y-stans enjoy reading? u dont like their comments? nobody is forcng u to. why can't y'all move along,or start ur own topic nd wait 4 ppl 2 agree w u? i dnt get ppl sliding into othr ppl's comments jst to argue like what r u rlly hopng 2 achieve? start ur own topic if u dont agree! c-stans startng argumnts aftr arguments on y-stans comments like it's their problem that those ppl like the character they hate, tf? what,r u hoping 2 change their minds? do u thnk arguing undr their comments will suddenly make them like cain? wth. it's rlly not that serious. all thse unnecessary drama over ppl liking the manhwa that we are all readng, talking trash, hating on it, nd then comng bck 2 kp reading jst 2 fckng hate on it some more like what the hell are y'all doing w ur lives? if u hate it so much,how about not readng? raining on othr ppl's parade 4 what? 2 show off that y'all are morally superior? ths isnt the proper forum 2 preach against dubcon! stop shaming othr ppl 4 reading, dang! it's rlly not that serious

sorry, i meant 2 say on the last part, stop shaming yahwi stans for liking yahwi

yeah, like you said, you should reread. because he definitely has raped him. l

i have reread. And no, he didn't. there's a difference between dubcon and noncon(rape). look it up.

lmao, no it was rape. you could argue one of the rapes *becomes dubious during the sex*, but it is inarguably rape at the start. and even then, it’s not really dubious, it’s rape through coercion.
ch8, jooin is too intoxicated to consent, no matter what. he literally cannot distinguish a dream from reality. this is rape.
ch25-27, yahwi sexually assaults and forces jooin, leading to him coercing jooin into sex. that’s rape. every time jooin says no to things - which he does, multiple times - yahwi uses jooin’s feelings to manipulate him and coerce jooin into saying yes. that is rape, not dubious.

also worth mentioning. i’m not a cain fan. i’m reading this story bcus of morbid curiosity - it’s like watching a train wreck. like if i *have to pick*, cain is not an abuser or a rapist while yahwi is both. but i’d rather jooin escape both of them and find someone normal.

i apologize for triple responding, but i think it’s important to stress something. you think this isn’t the forum to talk about this, but this is the comments of a discussion of a story that features this kinda content - where else are we gonna talk about it?

i agree that people should be allowed to enjoy their porn stories, and that stories that feature problematic elements like romanticized depictions of things like rape should be allowed to exist (just as a general anti censorship stance). but they should also never be immune to criticism. stories that feature rape and abuse where it is forgiven, looked past, or even looked upon positively is rampant in the primarily female and queer romantic content market. like, if you don’t wanna think about these things, that’s your decision, but it’s also wise to not interact in spaces specifically where anyone can discuss anything related to the material.

like it or not, stories that depict rape and assault in ways like this do have a negative impact on real life. if yahwi and jooin were real people, what yahwi did would be unquestionably sexual assault and rape. they’re fictional, so it’s something we have the ability to look past much more easily and understandably - but it’s not like this is the only story in the world that does this. real people have experiences like this - where they say no but they are manipulated and/or coerced into letting it happen. jooin never even *agrees*, yahwi takes jooin’s silence and his boner as a yes. real people have similar experiences to this. Stories where it is not treated or acknowledged as rape - by the author or by fans or both - will unintentionally or not impact whether people view something like this as rape in real life. People will see dozens or hundreds of pieces like this where writers and/or fans agree it is not rape because of xyz, and that mentality will bleed into real life. Many assault victims never come forward or struggle to because of a culture that has convinced them that they weren’t really victims, because they didn’t say no even though they never consented, or because they were manipulated/coerced into saying yes.

Im inlove w you marry me for real

hello i'm about to board a plane right now so i dnt hv mch time 2 respnd, bt i promise i wil as soon as i find the time. in the meantime i'm going 2 leave a link to a short reading that jst about sums up what i thnk about this whole issue:

https://medium.com/@lyssadering/dubcon-is-unproblematic-why-the-dubious-consent-trope-is-different-than-the-normalization-of-rape-ea1728692763

i hv a several points 2 add. i'll write again when i'm able. gtg

hello i'm about to board a plane right now so i dnt hv mch time 2 respnd, bt i promise i wil as soon as i find the time. in the meantime i'm going 2 leave a link to a short reading that jst about sums up what i thnk about this whole issue:

https://medium.com/@lyssadering/dubcon-is-unproblematic-why-the-dubious-consent-trope-is-different-than-the-normalization-of-rape-ea1728692763

i hv a several points 2 add. i'll write again when i'm able. gtg

That’s a very good article and I do mostly agree with it! But it does not actually counter anything I’ve said. There is no content warning for rape or dubious consent. This is not depicted as a work of fiction with dubcon elements, but a love story where something that can easily be described as rape by coercion occurs. Like I’ve stated, these things are allowed to exist, but that doesn’t exempt them from criticism. And besides for that, I wouldn’t say this story meets the criteria set about by the article.

Additionally to clarify, it is fully different when the author and audience both know what they are depicting. This seems like neither the author nor much of the audience do. Besides for that, again, these things are not exempt from criticism. Bad writing is bad writing, and badly written sex scenes are not exempt from criticism just because they embody a specific kink or fetish.

Even well-intended, perfectly tagged content can perpetuate rape culture myths and sexual assault misinformation that can harm people. This story is not, by the way, since it does not tag or warn. But regardless, this content (tagged or i tagged) is the unfortunate impact of these things existing in a world where our minds are easily influenced by things we read. To give an extreme example, last night my boyfriend was telling me about how the lawyers studying Alex Jones’ content to properly prosecute him even had to keep each other in check to prevent them from falling down insane, illogical conspiracy pipelines. While obviously one BL romance story is not nearly as harmful or impactful as content as insane as that, when you see romance story after romance story after romance story depict something that would undeniably be rape in the real world (because again, it would. there is no getting around this) as something that can be forgiven, as a simple miscommunication or misunderstanding, as a way of trying to portray love - that sticks with people. It doesn’t go away. And when stories like this don’t even bother to warn or inform that they are depicting “dubious consent” - well, there’s nothing safeguarding against that.

In an ideal world, this sort of content could exist without issue. But the world we live in is not ideal, and survivors are constantly being undermined and doubted if their assaults don’t fit specific criteria. If they get aroused from their assault, if they don’t say “no” but never say yes, if they are coerced and manipulated into doing things they do not want to do - their assault is questioned and argued about by others while they are left to deal with the trauma, and while they themselves will often doubt whether or not they are a “real victim”.

I applaud your response. Well explained.

Many people have a hard time viewing the rape part of the story. Then I, reluctantly went back to scan through the earlier chapters just to see the wording that Jooin used after the act. Had he said: "I finally had sex with Yawhi, I'm so happy, I can't believe it... OMG OMG", I would have said, Ok he was fully aware, and hence consent was given. Unfortunately, that was not the case. Here is what he said (while back at his dorm) and I quote: "The dream felt more real because of the alcohol. My whole body hurt... Even my butt... Why is it hurting so bad?" - Jooin.

I do not object to the fact that Jooin, has been badly crashing for Yawhi which led to having countless wet DREAMS. Which, later, Yahwi used to his advantage.

Had the author given a warning at the beginning of the chapter, it would have brought awareness of not to normalize the act. Because what is happening in the entire story is that the author is manipulating the narrative by minimizing the rape act.

I remember reading a BL titled "Intentional Love Story." In my opinion, the author nailed it while creating this story because he brought awareness to topics such as sex and alcohol. There is a scene, a bit similar to the one of YTC, where one of the protagonists was so drunk that he badly wanted to have sex with the leading male he had a crush on. But the latter said something along the lines of: "I never have sex with someone when they are drunk." Even though the situation so extremely arousing for him, the author still managed to point out 2 things (self-control and not taking advantage of the vulnerable in any circumstances).

Yours to claims has failed in so many points and I believe the author is trying as best as he can to reach the ending he has been expecting.

Just like you, I'm not supporting any team but I'm on the side of love, and respect and Cain is the one providing that.

While reading this story, I put myself in the shoes of victims of rape and how soundless their voices must feel when they are being questioned if what they've experienced is indeed rape.

Through fiction, an artist has the power to destroy or increase the sound of the voiceless victims. To give them the courage to also condemn the crime that has been done to them. But so far, this story fails to do that.

Sorry, "Unintentional love story" is the title for the BL.

I have so many thoughts but i'll try to make my response as short as pssble in the limited time that i hv ryt nw. Gvng this some attention as i like that i cn hv a decent, RESPECTFUL, conversation w somebdy here (although in all honesty it's a bit annoying bcoz i go here 2 be entertained,not hv serious conversations that shld be reservd in real life!) Anyway...

Aftr all that was said above,i thnk it's crucial to remmber that fiction & reality are two distinct entities. Wyl stories in comics,novels,or any othr form of entertainment may depict scenarios that can be uncmfortable or triggering 2 some,it doesn't mean that those enjoyng these stories condone or support such actions in real life.Fiction serves as an escape,a means to explore various narratives, including those that might be dark or controversial,w/o real-world consequences.

It's true that content creators shld be responsible & sensitive in hw they approach certain topics,ensuring that there are appropriate warnings or disclaimers 4 readers. But at the same time,readers shld be discerning & understand the line between fiction & reality. Just as horror film enthusiasts don't necessarily endorse violence,
manga/manhwa/manhua readers can--and should be afforded their right to--appreciate a story w/o promoting harmful real-world ideologies.

It's essential to be empathetic & not shame indivduals for their choice of entertainment, recognizng that the act of readng does not equate to an endorsement of the actions within the narrative.Just as one wldnt assume that a person readng abt a crime in a novel supports that crime in reality,the same understandng shld be extended to all forms of fiction,including comics with dubious content. Everyone has a personal threshold for what they find acceptable in fiction,but it's vital to keep the distinction between the fictional world & our real-world beliefs & actions clear.

that response was for you, @coffeedrinker , sorry forgot 2 hit "reply"