Hello everybody, just a quick message to say that I'll be muting this thread and I think we should all move on, we obviously perceive this manga and the characters very differently and I don't think any of us will be able to convince the others to see them in the same light, and from I read, it's not really a discussion anymore but more attacks on our personal life/perception of things.
I think it's good to be able to exchange about the way we see the manga, it's good to be able to gush with other people about the characters when we love them, and it's also good to be able to rant about things we don't like. But when nothing comes out of it, it only makes us frustrated, so... Yeah, all this monologue to say that I think we should all move on from this comment (づ￣ ³￣)づ
Okay, again, not a silly little opinion. You're belittling actual domestic violence survivors. You can't keep saying "I feel" without any examples or evidence.
Ok so definition of the verb to abuse: treat with cruelty or violence, especially regularly or repeatedly.
Définition of the verb cruelty: behaviour which causes physical or mental harm to another, especially a spouse, whether intentionally or not.
I said it was an opinion because this is a fiction, not a real life case.
Whether the uke is doing it intentionally or not. Treating the seme with so little respect regularly, in real life, can cause permanent damage on one's personnality where the person would loose their self esteem and think they're inferior, which will make him/her more submissive towards her partner, sometimes even worshipping him.
This thing is commonly known in psychology. If you want to read more about it:
What is a Toxic Relationship?
A toxic relationship is characterized by behaviors from one partner that are "emotionally" and, at times, physically damaging to the other. It involves continuous undermining and manipulation, often resulting in an unbalanced power dynamic. The toxic partner may or may not be aware of the harm they inflict, perpetuating a cycle of toxicity.
The power dynamic in their couple is clear. Dojin appears with a weak presence always taking on himself.
Emotional abuse can vary from verbal abuse to very subtle non validation of someone's opinions, and constant trampling on their goodwill.
For a psychlogist, when a person comes to you they won't be screaming at you "I am emotionally abusee! Or I have low self esteem!" But you can deduce that from very subtle movements, epressions and even a person's posture.
If you can't see it, I do. It's okay if not because this is fiction after all.
Okay. But none of that applies to their relationship. For anything, Dojin has abusive tendencies including rape, possessiveness, and overall being overbearing.
Obviously I know what abuse is, as someone who is a survivor and has taken several psychology courses. The fact that you can't give examples of Hyesung being abusive, proves my point.
You even need me to point that out for you? I'm not re-reading this again. What I read in the previous chapter is enough evidence for me.
How the uke doesn't bother even listening to Dojin because he doesn't care about what he says. And his haughty and self-important behaviour.
He doesn't need to shout, doesn't need to make that expression when facing him.
Well, he doesn't even bother looking at his face, or showing him any kind of goodwill, while the other is literally begging him. I'm not saying to accept to go on a tour with him but at least to appologise because, yes, he was in the wrong. He accepted to go when he wasn't even listening while raising the other's expectations to trample him mercilessly in the end.
Instead, he acts all self-entitled, talking about his studies and their son, implictly blaming Dojin for taking them into account. So in the end, he appears to be the responsible person acting rightfully. This is basic manipulation even if not done intentionally.
If you have suffered yourself of abuse, it doesn't invalidate other people's suffering. There are different types of abuse with different repercussions on people. And I've met not a few in this situation.
I might have come off as a bit insensitive at the end. I'm really sorry that you had to go through that.
First and foremost, Dojin has abusive tendencies including rape, possessiveness, and manipulation. To say Hyesung is the abusive one, is quite odd.
He never stated he didn't care what he said. He said he needs to pay more attention, I explained in another thread,
"Everyone gets lost in their heads sometimes. Glazing over important details when distracted doesn't mean someone doesn't care, just that they were distracted
This phenomenon is referred to by various names, such as snap judgment, automatic affirmation, or subconscious conditioning. It is prevalent in parents, stressed individuals, and those with ADHD. Sometimes, when someone asks a question, it doesn't fully register in our minds, and our automatic response might be a quick "what?" or "huh?" to seek clarification.
Moreover, there's a psychological tendency known as the 'liking bias,' where we are more likely to comply with requests from people we have positive feelings for. In such cases, even when our brain is on autopilot, we may find ourselves instinctively responding with a
'yes' to those we hold affection for
If he was ignoring him, he would've said NOTHING. Ignoring someone is an intentional act. Automatic affirmation revolves around not being in the moment, As previously discussed, automatic affirmation can occur in situations where someone agrees without fully processing the question. It is not uncommon for people to respond with a quick 'yes' without thinking, especially when caught off guard or dealing with distractions. The statement about paying more is an afterthought or a self-reflection following his initial automatic affirmation. Because, yes, automatic affirmation and snap judgments are resolved when you pay more attention to the contents of someone's words
It would be a different story if he said, 'I should stop ignoring him' or 'I never planned on actually going.' But, no."
Okay, as for the tour, mentioning the studies and Byul isn't self entitlement, he's giving his reasoning. As mentioned, Hyesung did video call with him
I'm sorry to say that I'm ignorant on such condition so I'm kindly asking you to provide me with you sources so that I can learn more about it. It seems quite legit but I doubt that the uke is suffering from that. This is so far fetched and it felt like you want to forcefully apply it on him... since I see many inconsistencies, such as the fact he's only acting this way towards the seme. Moreover his attitute while picking his ear is commonly seen in manga and anime and is mostly used to express that the character "doesn't care" or "doesn't give a fuck". It's not me who says it, I went to several forums where people were asking what those gestures mean. And I mean it's quite self evident. So yeah, I find it hard to believe. Since when it would happen to me, when I snap out, I would always try to ask the person what they were saying and appologise to them since it was my negligence. It's basic couretesy when you respect the person.
The uke was implying that it happened many times which means that he was aware of what he was doing... so yeah. I find this reasoning kind of far fetched to apply it on the uke.
And don't start me on Dojin because the writing of his character is just the stereotypical seme character with the rape and manipulation at the start but ofc he likes the uke and becomes his slave at the end shedding all human pride. His development doesn't make any sence aside from a deliberately fetishised trope amongst yaoi female authors.
I always wanted to ask there authors that if they really condemned rape, why would the seme always end up with the uke... or even include that trope. I've read many ABO without the rape tag and it's not indispensable. The implecation of this, I trust that you can figure it out yourself. ^^
Just like how u want to force the narative hyesung being abusive toward dojin with the evidence is being yourself as source meanwhile ur debate partner giving out real source cause they actually learned it. This conversation is just so nasty like u really out here defending a rapist character in front of a survivor.
I choose not to share my own life experience and my academic field because I regard it as private matters.
There is no source, that's why I'm asking for it; some actual legit articles to back up their claim. I looked for the terms she/he used and found that it didn't match up with what was said. You are welcome to do your own research.
When did I ever say or even imply that I was in favor of the rape. I find it even distasteful to incorporate it in the story about romance. I'm not defending the seme I'm just saying that their past and present behavior is problematic, BOTH the seme AND the uke. I just find it absurd that people can read this story and still find their present situation "healthy".
I get that he is supposed to have a hard time showing his feelings and everything but now it really seems as if he doesn't care and is only with him because of the bond and pheromones, I mean, he even thought "I really should listen to him more when he talks" so at that point it really looks like he simply doesn't give a shit about Dojin except when he needs him to fuck. And Dojin is just too in love to see it or to do anything about it. I would love to have a chapter where Dojin just... reacts to the emotional abuse, he shouldn't just take it and be miserable all the time.