Well...it stops being consensual when the uke says stop. Consent can be withdrawn (as can a penis). But I am okay with rape as a story element.
but you know... the problem is what is rape for u or me? in a manga is difficult know cause there are so little elements... i'm saying that in this case but only in this case i can't see it like was the worst one... and its not cause he is boy (ever if i was a girl) i think that is cause i didn't see any resistance, except the words!!! (￣∇￣") Well but the true i don't like this type of theme in a manga... ¬¬
Honestly I never saw it as rape to begin with.... They made mistakes and it got out of hand, and when it did nobody knew how to handle it. I think the seme might have initially gone too far, but that's it...
Oh.... i was thinking like that too ^^
It's rape according to the objective definition of the word--sex without consent. Words are enough to withdraw consent. Again, I don't care about rape being in the story (I like the story), but it is rape, Once someone says stop, there is no consent. Nothing else is needed. And this guy was hurt enough to be hospitalized--that's a little more than inexperience. And to keep going when someone is hurt that bad....well, it's fiction. I do like the story overall.
Of course in real life, if anyone, man or woman, says "stop" and the other person doe snot stop, it i s rape. There is no need to have to fight or struggle. Not consenting makes it rape.
Well... in manga all the ukes (rape or not) say stop or no??? the situation is that make the difference!!!! i don't like rape in manga cause they make u feel like is "somehow" ok but is not in reality!!!¬¬
And the fact that hurts... well i'm a masochist and sadistic girl so... this is nothing to me, but for u not?! Maybe cause of this i have a different vision of it! ^^
The problem here is that are two young boys, virgins (both don't know anything)... at the beginning it was consensual! Fact! ... after the uke say stop... but the seme (lost his mind) and continues to hurt him...and he panics when he takes conscience what he did and say many bad things... This is it!!! ┑(￣Д ￣)┍ this is what i see.... nothing more! i think that the seme really wanted hurt him! YES ITS RAPE!!!! but he lost his mind!!!! so to me is something that i don't know how to feel about??? but is not RAPE!!!!
You know i put myself in his shoes... i think that with raging hormones (virgin)... have someone that you like in front of u naked... say is ok!!! I probably would not hear anything
after that!!! (︶︿︶) I would go crazy ^^
Yes, yaoi is full of rape--and that's okay. Every time a uke (or anyone) says stop and the other ignores it, it is rape. Often rape in yaoi and other erotica plays the role of "ravishment" or is a metaphor for being sexually awakened, or it plays some other role because fiction is different than real life. That's fine. I like it in stories. It's not real, and it acts differently than real life rape.
in this particular story, it doesn't read as "ravishment" to me because the uke was badly hurt and did not sexually enjoying it. Believe me, plenty of inexperienced teen boys manage to have sex--even anal-- without sending their partner to the hospital. You have to be very rough to make that necessary. And even a 5-year-old knows to stop when the other screams in pain unless the child is being a bully on purpose.
It began as consensual--but it became rape when the uke said stop--especially when it is obvious the uke was in serious pain. As for the idea that the seme "lost his mind"--that's complete crap. Men can stop during sex just like women can. The seme could see he was hurting the uke, and he heard the uke say to stop. He could easily have pulled out. It's not that hard (no pun) intended. It was rape and it was 100% the seme's fault.
Now, this is fiction. I don't hate the seme--I just think he is a self-centered ass who thinks only of what he wants and doesn't listen to the uke or care what the uke wants, even now, in any aspect of their lives as adults. I still like the story. I am just not going to sugar coat it or change standard definitions of words.
FWIW, there are many rapists in yaoi that I like. Many of my favorite characters are rapists. It's okay because it's fiction. As I said, rape in fiction can play many roles, and it is not the same as real rape. It's just a part of the story. Buit it's still rape.
Oh i forgot to say that the seme say (before they have sex) that if the unke want have sex with him... he coundn't stop after starting... so the uke know that he couldn't stop!!!!¬¬
Sorry but say anyboody has selfcontrol is ridiculous... i'm a lawyer... i already see so many cases where good people make the worst things that u will never belive that they could!!! how could they make it if they have selfcontrol???I DON'T HAVE SELFCONTROL and cause i know that I avoid certain situations!!!
In the law to be rape u need to know what was the intention of the agent... and to me he doesn't have the intention of to do a rape!!!! he hurt him... yes!!! but at the time of the act he could stop???
The problem here is the history is so little and you can't to judge if is or not is just cause of that little part.
LOL well, I see your law degree proves men are incapable of self-control when it comes to sex. The beasts should all be caged, right?
Thumbs up for being the voice of reason.
I'm disturbed by how many people here are trying to justify and or explain away rape.
When someone is repeatedly screaming no, begging you to stop, and bleeding, then you STOP!
It really is that simple.
No.. is no simple!!! i know that is easy say it is... and i'm not saying that all man are monster! I'm saying that all of us are different!!! the fact that u are the most capable and perfect of the planet; Don't make me the same, I'm human and i make many and many mistakes!!! And I'm not trying change your opinion... i'm just saying what i think!!!! ¬¬ And what i think is that is stupid the fact that u can affirm that what happend wasrape with only 3 pages of manga!!! O.O The mangaka not deepened in the past and this makes you question yourself whether it is really what it seems!!!(￣∇￣")
I'm guessing you've never sat through a rape trial or known a rape victim.
Either that or you been involved in an assault and are trying to justify your behavior using this manga as a proxy.
The bottom line is that you don't need any additional pages to determine that what took place was a rape.
It's not a matter of opinion.
It's simply a fact.
As defined by the laws of the vast majority of countries on planet earth, Yuu was raped.
In some countries that fact that the rape involved sodomy would mean additional laws were broken.
Regardless of how you feel about it, a rape is a rape and this manga included a textbook act of rape.
Wow... to u everything is rape!!! to u know the law is explicit to say that is need to know the intention of the agent... and the seme say two time that we didn't have the intention of rape the uke!!! that's why he say i'm not going have sex with u again cause i will loose the control and hurt u again!!! So he didn't have the intention of rape !!! so in the law he didn't respond for rape but for bodily injury!!!! The have rape is necessary agaist the sexual freedom!!! Rape need necessarily that the agent acts to constrain the victim; use of violence or serious threat; have sexual intercourse; or perform or allow them to practice other lewd acts.
Only in this case... there is only boy desire and the body injury! there is nothing that prove that he forced him to do or he threat him... so to me is not!!!!
And darling... I know many girls and boys pass for this, I work with the law... It horrible, they feel dirty... sometimes they can't get out of the house, their lives will always be marked for this... i know many people that can't have a normal live cause of a monster like them... （￣へ￣）
In most jurisdictions, intent simply means the person knew what he or she was doing and did it. It does not require the perpetrator to want to be held responsible for criminal actions, nor does it require the perpetrator to have no reason why he or she feels justified in doing what he or she did. We don't need to know everything a perpetrator may have thought because then no one would ever be found guilty.
So, let's look at this case. Did the seme hear and understand words such as s "stop" or "no"?
Yes, he did. And he saw signs that the uke was physically in pain too.
Would a reasonable person take this to mean a lack of consent?
Yes. Any reasonable person would take this to mean there is no longer consent.
Did he freely choose to force sex after that point?
Yes.
Then he had intent. He doesn't have to intend any more than that.
In the case of role play, the parties would set boundaries in advance and set up a safe word or signal. No advanced agreement means that one or both parties cannot withdraw consent. It is always a basic legal right, and your law school should review its pedagogy, not only for how it teaches about sex crimes but for how it teaches both specific and general intent--because it failed to teach you properly.
Also if you live in a jurisdiction where restraint is needed as an element in rape, then gods help you. It's probably also legal to throw acid in women's faces in a place like that. In most jurisdictions, all you need is sex without consent (though there are usually various levels and types of sex crimes in the law, all of which could be commonly called rape).
Well Said!
Sometimes reading comments here I wonder if the same people who are swearing up and down that it was consensual would feel the same if the same thing happened to them or someone they cared about...
Well, I defend it as fiction...I read about lots of things that are good as stories but that I would never want in real life. Fiction itself can be seen as a type of mental role play to which the reader consents (or can quit). I understand why some people want to soften that by calling it "ravishment" or whatever role the rape plays in the story. But it is what it is.
And some of the comments sounded as if Sangria was talking about real life standards--and then it is very import to make it clear that in real life, this is rape.
Agreed.
I don't have a problem with the inclusion of rape in fictional works in and of itself.
In fact, I've read quite a few good mangas that have included rape in a way that was neither gratuitous, nor offensive.
After all, sexual assaults are a real, albeit disturbing, phenomenon, so I expect authors and artist to occasionally explore them.
I simply dislike stories in which sexual violence is romanticized.
And I absolutely hate when people attempt to explain away or dismiss the rapes portrayed in stories like this as anything other that what they are.
Oh god... the sex was concensual! They wanted... But its is clear they didn't know how to do it, they were too young... to me both are wrong! The only think that i really hate was the fact that the seme say that horrible things and try blame the uke for everything... （￣へ￣) But somehow i'm starting thinking that the seme is a sadist... that's why when he see the uke crying he couldn't stop? ¬¬