Why does the seme always have all the talent, good looks, charm, and money while the uke i...

Its not unrealistic because we think gay relationships are like that... Its unrealistic because its manga. Have you read shoujo manga? Do you think any relationship is like the ones they depict? Some of them are more realistic than others, but mostly theyre all pure fantasy.

Yeah that's true. The romance dies after a while in real relationships. ╮(￣▽￣)╭ I still don't understand the whole top/bottom gender-roles thing though.

Yaoi is not meant to be an accurate depiction of a real life gay couple. In fact, it really has little to do with real gay men. While some gay and straight men may read yaoi, the primary audience is women who want to explore sexuality without the gender dynamics of male/female social constructs. That is why there is an emphasis on one partner being penetrated, which is not as common among gay men in real life. But the female reader identifies with the penetrated character.

I wish there was more yaoi directed at men that didn't have huge steroid muscle guys （/TДT)/

im actually female biologically and i identify with both the seme, and the uke. i think it depend on the person.

Agreed. I love it when in yaoi the couples switch roles. Unfortunately, oftentimes, even in yaoi mangas where the couples do switch, they don't show it, it just implies that it happens.

Yaoi is unrealistic because homosexual relationships and the male psychology are not like yaoi portrays. The truth is that yaoi is the protrayal of ideal sexual and romantic relationships, that's why you find so much gender roles and sterotypes associated with them in the main characters.

This is more evident in that the vast majority of gay men have no interest in yaoi.

It is unrealitic because gay couples don't work that way. Yaoi is not about male homosexuality; yaoi is about heterosexuality forced on two males who will be fetishised by female readers.

And yuri is any different?
On the other hand it is good for people to acknowledge that most relationships do not function in this way (barring those with kinks). Yaoi is no different from porn - it is made to appeal to a certain audience. Women generally don't want to look at heterosexual porn (it makes me cringe) but I don't see anyone protesting the fetishisizing of women in that industry, since you're angry about men being fetishisized.
Of course it is always good to be angry at the objectification of people, but you just have to make sure people understand the difference between fiction and reality.
Aaagh I'm typing this at (basically) 2 in the morning a week before finals! Cut me some slack if you get offended, cause I'm not trying to be offensive, but I get offended when people imply I'm doing something wrong simply by reading some entirely unrealistic porn. Any type of porn is unrealistic - there are some yaois close to reality, but none are really quit on the mark (or at least, none that I've read, and I've read a lot).
I've gone into a massive tangent so I need to back off now before I say anymore. Sorry for the bother!
(￣∇￣")

I dont think anyone was trying to shame yaoi fans, I think it was just raising the relevant question of why, even in stories of romance between two men is the man in the penetrated role portrayed as less of a man and often less of a person as well.

There is nothing wrong with liking something flawed, but sometimes you have to acknowledge those flaws.

Romance novels/stories are typically unrealistic but the biggest concern I always have is that there is a firm emphasis on an unbalanced dynamic in the majority of these tales.
No matter the gender the partners take, the "bottom" roles is often associated with socially "feminine" traits. Usually smaller, "cuter", make less money, or have a lower position, etc etc.

Its really a shame honestly that its so common across all romance genres. Women and their traits are just subconsciously portrayed as lesser. Pretty things to be owned and dominated.

It is a way to make people feel more comfortable with it, I think. Women are pretty used to being seen as lesser (even if it is only subconsciously) so it is reflected even in relationships where it honestly shouldn't be. Because if two men can have an equal relationship, that means that it should also change for women.
I also think that's pretty much a stereotype for the bottom roles in any manga - however, it carries the implication that if these people were in a better place in their life (socially, financially, physically, etc) they then would not be in a gay relationship.
Ugh it's all pretty stupid.
Thanks for the reply though, you brought up some awesome points.

Really though this entire thread is awesome, when I saw the first comment I was sure there would be a ton of arguing but everyone brought up some real chill and relevant topics that honestly should be discussed.

Awareness is always the first part of making any change and maybe future romance books/manga/etc will begin to reflect our thoughts? I feel when reading current manga vs older manga I do find differences in more than just aesthetics. So heres to the future of yaoi? Just slowly getting better and better?

Yeah, I figured there's no use in getting really fired up about stuff, and I hate getting into arguments. I'd much rather discuss stuff than waste my time getting offended. Besides, getting really offended and defensive means you aren't just defending your opinion anymore, then it gets stupid. The first time you start lashing out instead of discussing stuff means that you have already been defeated, in my opinion.

I do think that things are slowly changing in regards to yaoi. A lot of the comics that have ended up on here really reflects those changes too (I never used to like them but a lot them have some pretty solid romance and actual reasons for actions, which I like [ but the porn is also good]). Yeah, there is a pretty big difference between older manga and younger manga - especially in the yaoi category. It makes me happy to see that.

I read one the other day where one guy wasn't ready on a physical level even though emotionally he was in love and the bae totally was like "when your ready" and dated for two years before getting to the physical part.

For me those types of relationships are the ideal like the whole "I love you = I care about what you and your comfort" shouldn't be so rare. I also find more and more often characters in yaoi manga are respecting the no and seeking real consent.

Its still outnumbered but its clearly gaining awareness. (๑•ㅂ•)و✧

Yeah, I like that.
I mean, I understand that yes, some are porn, and thus will remain unrealistic, but I do prefer when they actually gain consent from their partner. I really, really love those ones.
Especially when it takes them a while to reach that point - but I honestly don't find many that do that.
Plus, I've been stumbling onto some really awesome non-yaois that have popped up at some points, so yay for that too!!

I read a smut yaoi today that had a seme determined to wait till the uke asked for it because he 'didnt just want the body in the end' and woed him for a month before succeeding. It was porny AF and still had consent, a diamond! Lol.

Ugh yes I love those ones! I don't find too many though, and when I look back through some of my lists I start cringing at how I tagged them... But I really don't want to start sorting through 400 odd tags on manga I might not remember!!
I've been here a long time, and I think you might be the first person I've had an actual conversation with...

I've been reading on here for nearly 10 years but didn't make an account until last year? this year? sometime recently. I have made many comments but I agree this is the first real long conversation I've ever had. and its good one!
I understand about the 400+ manga issue, I tried making lists but sort of abandoned them at some point and haven't added any of the new manga I've read to any list for the past 4 months, oh its a mess. Then I go reread ones I used to love years back and go "was this always so terrible?"

I did the same thing. I read old manga I used to love and now I see how toxic the relationships I thought were romantic actually were.

I actually just got rid of a series of manga I bought back in my new to manga 13/14 naive years. It was a shojo series with the most abusive dude ever like he blackmailed and bullied the girl for most of the series. And she was always this weak willed victim who got kidnapped and harassed and never grew a backbone and I am seriously wondering what my 13 year old self ever saw in it.

I mean I bought all 14 volumes so I must have really thought it was great. Ahhh the horror of hindsight? Did I think that was love? Wtf self. Wtf.