Are you ready?!!!!

*Is true, but is difficult to me explain well what i wanna say :P*

Ha-ha! English is my second language so I know very well what you mean :D

I am not generalizing--I am making associations and applying outside knowledge. :P

I also like to interpret and sometimes speculate. You can tell when I do that by the context and the use of qualify phrases such as "maybe" and "what if". It's just a way of discussing the story.

To generalize would be to say, "Senzaki is a Yakuza and Senzaki is crazy; therefore, all Yakuza are crazy." What I am saying is his actions fit certain established philosophical frameworks that value passion and authenticity over social conformity or traditional morality. You are free to disagree with my analysis, but the analysis does not contain generalizations. It's based on my interpretation of the text.

If I were arguing that Senzaki must be a genius (which I am not) I would be committing the fallacy of argument from ignorance. But that is not what I am saying. I am saying we don't know much about his intelligence at this point. I am simply unwilling to assume he is stupid simply because he acts on his passions.

Okay :) Ignore the last part of the comment I just made.

*Senzaki is smart enough t o know that you don't have to be afraid of getting hurt. He says, "Pain is proof that you are alive." When Kierkegaard wrote shit like that, they called him a philosopher and published his books. Actually there are different types of intelligence, and "good instincts" can be seen as one of them.*

Just because Senzaki said something that some philosopher might have said doesn't make him smart or genious. So that's an assumption and generalisation. And if you were not trying to say that Senzaki is smart or genious, what WERE you trying to say? That it's a possibility? But this whole thing strarted by me saying that he should "use his brain if he has one" and that FOR NOW I can only say that he did something extremely stupid and lost.

lol a girl on fb wrote "That fucktard actually dared to touch MY Karino" I laughed a bit,you're not alone XDXDXD

Ha-ha-ha! ROFL :DDD

I am saying that some of Senzaki's words and actions fit the framework of existential philosophy and Nietzsche's ideas (Nietzche was actually a bit on the outer edges, but I'm throwing him in with the existentialists). This doesn't automatically mean Senzaki is "smart" or mean that he knows "existentialism" from a whole in the ground, but it does provide a different way of analyzing his actions. The fact that their ideas and quotes fit him so well shows that he is operating differently than some of the others. Therefore, it makes sense to evaluate whatever types of intelligence he may have in terms of his own values and standards, rather than by whether we like his actions. I am giving Senaki credit because, as Tatsumi says, "The world that he sees is different from ordinary."

You say attacking Karino was "extremely stupid"--and I say it may not be, if looked at from a different philosophy. That's all.

PS If you ever see Finding Dory, notice how she uses her instincts as a type of intelligence to compensate for her memory issues (her short-term memory last only 6 seconds). Dory is a character that many may think of as "stupid" but who is actually very smart in a different way than most of the other characters. She also "lives in the moment" (not so much by choice, but by design). She is very passionate in her way (for a fish). But it's easier to give Dory credit for having different types of intelligence because she is successful.

I meant hole, not "whole" . . . er, or maybe it was a philosophical typo. I make many philosophical typos.

Fan challenge: can anyone here get a university professor to accept a paper comparing and contrasting Dory and Senzaki as characters that exemplify existential ideas in modern culture? Bonus if you can successfully argue any typos you made were "philosophical" and should not result in point deductions. Please tell me if anyone writes this paper.

You may try and look at it from whatever point of philosophy or psychology, (or astrology for that matter) you want, but as the result of his actions he lost someone he was trying to hold (by doing that), so no matter how you turn it - that was stupid, since the result is quite the opposite from what he was trying to achieve.

If you define "stupid" as "not achieving the desired result", then you ar right. But much of learning takes place by making mistakes, and the scientific method involves testing hypotheses, not necessarily being right all the time before testing. So, a "result-only" definition of intelligence is not ver useful. If we use a standard definition of intelligence as "the capacity to acquire and apply knowledge and skills", intelligence is not judged by the results alone, but by what is acquired and applied. Senzaki has acquired knowledge and skills in the past that have been working for him up t this point, but that did not work well for him in this particular situation if we judge his goal as te desire for Tatsumi rather than the ability to live freely and authentically. If we grant that he could have two or more goals at the same time, than the most we can say is that he as only partially successful in the way he applied past knowledge and skills to solve his problem. We have yet to see if he learns from this experience.

Learning from experience is a much better indicator of intelligence than results alone.

"The definition of intelligence is controversial. Some groups of psychologists have suggested the following definitions: A very general mental capability that, among other things, involves the ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas, learn quickly and learn from experience. It is not merely book learning, a narrow academic skill, or test-taking smarts. Rather, it reflects a broader and deeper capability for comprehending our surroundings—"catching on," "making sense" of things, or "figuring out" what to do." (wiki)

Senzaki's actions didn't show any of the above until now (unlike Karino btw, who shows all the ablities mentioned above) But even if I go with your little and not the most important part of definition that you offered "the capacity to acquire and apply knowledge and skills - what kind of capacity and knowledge did Senzaki apply and what was the result? Where is the intelligence here?

*Senzaki has acquired knowledge and skills in the past that have been working for him up t this point* - you keep assuming..

*if we judge his goal as te desire for Tatsumi * - that's just obvious, since THAT is what the story tells us, you can't just keep assuming and ignoring the story.

*Learning from experience is a much better indicator of intelligence than results alone.*

And this is most ridiculous - someone who needs years to deliver result doesn't come even close to someone whose intelligence level is so high that he/she can deliver the result right away or quickly.

The definition you suggest may be more inclusive, but it is more support for the idea that judging intelligence based on results alone is inaccurate. Let me try a more concrete approach. I'll agree to your definition of intelligence: "A very general mental capability that, among other things, involves the ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas, learn quickly and learn from experience." Note that this includes learning, and not merely being right all the time or obtaing a positive result.

Senzaki quickly learns Tatsumi's kinks. We know that Tatsumi is first attracted to Senzaki when Senzaki is beating up someone else. Senzaki knows that too. When Tatsumi asks Senzaki for the earing for a piercing, Senzaki observes certain things about Tatsumi--one being that Tatsumi is attracted to bad boys. Senzaki experiments and learns Tatsumi is a masochist. Based on Senzaki's subsequent actions, it seems he is able to observe, quickly comprehend complex ideas, and plan based on the information. And it works at that point.

Senzaki learns that Tatsumi likes it when Tatsumi beats up people for him. Tatsumi said, "That guy insulted me." and watched as Senzaki beat the crap out of him. Tatsumi eventually calls it off, but Tatsumi is pretty satisfied by how Senzaki acted. Tatsumi does not indicate he is shocked or upset that Senzaki went too far. Tatsumi merely expresses concern for Senzaki and draws Senzaki's attention to himself. At this point, Senzaki demonstrates the ability to think abstractly by talking about the nature of their relationship and what they would do for each other. Senzaki shows the ability to reason by pushing Tatsumi in ways that others may find crazy (being held out the window) but that Tatsumi responds to. This shows Senzaki thinking at a more abstract level and that there is more going on in his head than may be readily apparent. This whole scene is full of Senzaki's complex and abstract thinking as well as his application of a practical skill set for real world problem solving.

This scene also reveals that Senaki has problem-solving skills that work well for him. We have seen that in the past, beating the crap out of people has solved many problems for Senzaki. He was able to learn from this experience and apply that knowledge to a new situation. That guy was a problem for Tatsumi, and now he never will be again. Problem solved. Senzaki even started offering to show Tatsumi how to beat people up. Teaching a practical skill to other people is a way of reasoning, planning, and solving problems. Senzaki even showed Tatsumi how to "piss" on the fallen enemy to make sure he is never bothered again. That's so tactical planning at work to discourage future problems, right there. By your definition, Senzaki is demonstrating intelligence.

Senzaki fails to accurately assess new information with regards to Tatsumi's relationship with Karino, but to be fair, there was only one incident where Tatsumi protected his brother, and then Tatsumi provided conflicting data as to how he felt about it. You can't always extrapolate from a single data point--that incident might be an outlier. Tatsumi did stop Senzaki fro threatening Karino, but then Tatsumi assured Senzaki that his family did not mean more than Senzaki and the whole second nipple piercing seemed to bind them closer (and give Tatsumi a hard on). Senzaki is not privy to everything the reader knows about Tatsumi or Karino. From Senzaki's POV, using violence was an effective problem-solving tool for him, and Tatsumi seems turned on by violence. Tatsumi hasn't given Senzaki the information he needs to make an accurate assessment.

Senzaki actions showed reasoning and planning. Senzaki assessed information and concluded that Karino was a problem, demonstrating abstract thinking and complex reasoning. Senazaki made plans to solve the problem based on skills hat have worked well for him in the past. Senzaki demonstrates his skills in hunting down Karino and taking decisive action. The results were less than hoped for, but it is easy to miscalculate when you don't have all the data and new factors are introduced. What remains to be seen is what, if anything, Senzaki learns from this.

One instance of misjudging a situation does not necessary mean an action was stupid. Mistakes are a part of learning. The results may not be immediately favorable--but who hasn't caused a few unintended explosions or accidently set some lab equipment on fire? Sometimes important discoveries are made because of mistakes. (Or as Nietzche said, "[O]ne must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star."). It is not effective to judge actions based on results alone. We must judge them based on the information available t the person at the time the action was made, and then see if the eron learns from the new data provided.

Ha-ha-ha! I mean I'm sorry you spend so much time writing down something that sounds like: "Senzaki saw that Tatsumi has two legs and bought him two shoes and not three, so he is highly intelligent". But truth is - the only time (for now) Senzaki came across a serious problem was when Karino SAID to Tatsumi (not Senzaki assessed information) that he cannot be with Senzaki. And due to his "intelligence" he "solved the problem" in such a beautiful way, that not only Karino is alive and healthy, but Tatsumi dumps him (and Karino wins in THAT either, since he doesn't want Tatsumi to be with that "intelligent" dude). I don't want to insult Senzaki too much since there is a possibility that in the end he will become Karino's brother in law (and his bodyguard as Kiss suggested), so I hope he will really start using his brain (assuming he has one) and will find a way to fix that extremely stupid thing that he's done. But he should be careful too. Karino can use his brain (as he usually does) and destroy him (though I don't really think that sensei will go that way).

PS Every time you mention Nietzsche it reminds me of a friend of my friend who used to make me laugh by saying something like "this table is not a table - it's an illusion" and I would joke around saying "let me hit your head off this table - I'm sure you will realize how REAL it is" :DDD

I mean I get it - there was time when I was into that stuff too, mostly Schopenhauer though. But come on, it's much more fun to use your own brain and logic to analyze things and matters then to endlessly repeat someone else's words.

You are still focusing only on the results. I don't think you are open to applying tour definition of intelligence to Senzaki's actions because you are upset that he attacked your boy. I get that, I do. I hadn't really thought about how Senzaki might me demonstrating intelligence until you brought it up--but now that I use the definition you provided analyze the story, I see it.

I am not sure any amount of evidence would change your mind. If I say masochism is an example of a complex concept that he quickly understood and "transcendent love" is an abstract idea he expressed, you will dismiss those examples as obvious because you don't value them. If I show you problem solving, you discount it because disagree with his methods. I think you may disregard anything that doesn't fit with your value system.

You are also selling me a bit short, I think. When I use other's words to support my analysis, I am using my own brain. I am just supplying evidence to support my assertions and clarify my point. It's still *my* point. These are my original thoughts. Granted they are not that serious because it's just a chat about yaoi, but the ideas are mine. I am not simply parroting what other people have said.

Without results there is no proof of intelligence. You can scream all you want that you're the smartest person in the world, but unless you can prove it - no one will buy it. Unlike Karino (and not because he's "my boy" and not like I care) who really planned and carried out his plan, Senzaki just did things to Tatsumi and Tatsumi happened to like it. It's not like Senzaki was planning and thinking - he tried, he could fail the same way he failed with Karino. And as I said, I still give him the benefit of the doubt, but untill he proves it in one or the other way, there is no evidence of his intelligence whatsoever.

wow caste heaven is probably the only Yaoi where we can discuss philosophy. ...it's amazing lol Anyway Karino is the type of person who is successful in society and uses the rules to benefit himself,while Senzaki is the rebellious,passionate type(even artistic considering his tattoos and his words of love). They are different,Karino is more like a successful person based on what is considered success in society(which means status and money) he is cold,analitical,knows how to control people and wants power, while Senzaki is more like van Gogh(is just an example,van Gogh is extraordinary and can't be compared) crazy, original in its own way,rebellious and full of passion but who didn't succeed in what was considered success and died as a poor man. But Senzaki from what we have seen could be the same as many other criminals,no one can tell. Some criminals may be intelligent but who knows? They can't prove it and it may be useless.
However, when I asked someone to define intelligence,he simply replied he doesn't know what intelligence is and as such it couldn't be defined. I agree with him.

But the definition of intelligence you provided was not limited to results--in fact, results were not a part of the definition at all. Going by that definition, proof would be evidence of the various items listed in the definition (which I provided). You say experimenting is not planning and thinking. I beg to differ. I think they fit the definition you gave regardless of the results. You will not credit that understanding what another person wants sexually is a type of intelligence (which isn't exactly an argument I made, but okay). Since in yaoi, many semes are magically granted this ability, I won't focus on that, even if I think there is more to it than doing things the other happened to like. I going to take just one of my examples: solving the problem of a guy who was threatening and insulting Tatsumi.

http://iweb6.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/caste_heaven/18/92be33c5267b02c7ecaca2b6bc08eaf7.png

This guy wasn't much of a problem yet for Tatsumi, but he could have become one. He and his friends cornered Tatsumi when Tatsumi was alone and they were beeing very threatening and implying rape might occur. Senzaki assessed the situation quickly and planned his actions accordingly. He was not out of control or in a blind rage. His attack was calculated--and punctuate with a speech expressing abstract concepts. Now, my first reaction to at teenager spouting words of transcendent love while beating the shit out of a wannabe rapist is to laugh. I'll grant it's a bit on the melodramatic side. But Senzaki was expressing abstract thoughts on complex topics as well as planning and thinking. The definition doesn't say the ideas have to be certain approved abstract concepts or even proper complex thinking. All it said was abstract and complex. Look at what Senzaki says. It's abstract and complex. Senzaki planned how to kick and hit the guy next. He was thinking when he asked Tatsumi if he's ever beaten anyone up. Senzaki planned how to beat the guy up in a way that would show Tatsumi how to do it. Again, Senzaki is thinking about what he is doing and using it to try to teach Tatsumi. It was all well reasoned as well as an effective method of solving the problem. At the end, Senzaki even thought about the future and had Tatsumi act in such a way as to prevent this guy from ever bothering Tatsumi again. That involves thinking and planning. It's higher order reasoning. It's also crude and violent--but it's evidence of reasoning skills. It's not just what he did, but why he said he did it, and how he did it. Just because he thought quickly doesn't make it less of a thought.

Does it make Senzaki "highly" intelligent? Well, we didn't really establish a scale for measuring intelligence, just a definition, and these acts fit that definition. Senzaki's words in this scene demonstrate abstract thoughts and complex thinking. Senzaki's actions demonstrate planning, quick thinking, and problem-solving skills. You'll notice the definition does not stipulate how serious the problem has to be. It just says "problem solving". Was there a problem? Yes. Did he solve it? Yes. That meets the requirements of the definition. He has demonstrated at least *some* intelligence.

That's a great analogy. :) Van Gough did see the world differently than the rest of us. And you are right: the two characters are very different, so it's a bit like comparing apples to oranges.

For a change of pace, let's apply your definition of intelligence to Karino in a similar scene. When he rescued Azusa from the fat guy, was Karino demonstrating "A very general mental capability that, among other things, involves the ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas, learn quickly and learn from experience." Karino didn't get the result he wanted from Azusa (at that time) but I think Karin still showed some intelligence.

Remember this? http://iweb9.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/caste_heaven/2/3542ebea3a64096474eff3b4abd54eb0.png

I think Karino showed problem-solving abilities. It may be a bit of an assumption to believe Karino came to the bathroom to check on Azusa, but it's not that much of a stretch. Regardless, Karino saw a problem, assessed the situation, and planned his response. Karino purposefully put a foot in the fat guy's face and told him to get lost. This is crude and violent, but effective. Karino used his physical strength and his power as king to make the attempted rapist leave. Again, quick thinking and action. Karino has demonstrated reasoning and applied skills to solve the problem. Karino's words indicated that he was initially hoping for gratitude, and Kario failed to obtain the desired result--but Karino learns from his experience and makes a new plan.

Would you agree that Karino's actions in this scene meet the requirements of demonstrating "intelligence" by that definition?