the history is interesting , but the girl is a little bit dumb and has slept whit the guy ...

amilen May 29, 2016 4:45 pm

the history is interesting , but the girl is a little bit dumb and has slept whit the guy who let her in a prostitution house, the hell with this argument ?!!! (╯°Д °)╯╧╧i'm desappointed right now and don't know if i'll continue reading this manga ( ̄へ ̄)

Responses
    Cyrano November 3, 2016 5:48 pm

    Indeed, your ideas about manners and mine are quite different, I noticed that :-P .
    As I said, people's manners tell you a lot about them, and in your case it' not very flattering.
    Soit, so be it.
    As for the man bringing the girl to a whorehouse, which you seem to be judging such a horrible crime: you keep ignoring that in Yoshiwara, there WAS nothing else but whorehouses; so there was no place else to bring her to but to a whorehouse... All he did was pick a good one. It was a red light district, and all women were prostitutes, as soon as they entered there, and never stopped being so, until their death. So debt or no debt, kidnapped or sold, or even "time lapsed" in there, as long as you were a woman or a girl, in Yoshiwara and other redlight districts in other cities, you had the stature of a prostitute. For ever. And you never ever got to get out, whether you want to believe it or not. You insist on inflicting your 21st century standards upon a situation of 400 years ago, and basing your judgement upon that. That's bound to be impossible.
    The mangaka tries to tell a story about that particular place, and expects us to know a bit of the conditions that were normal there, in order to understand her story. I don't expect you to approve of the ways women were treated in the 17th century; I don’t approve either. But that’s how it was, nothing we can change about the past. Telling how it was, and explaining what was considered “normal” back then, doesn’t imply any personal judgement.
    Bottom line is: he COULDN’T have taken her anywhere BUT to a whorehouse, since there was nothing else there, and she, like any other woman, was unable to get out as soon as she was in. The guards couldn’t tell she was from the future, and even if they had been able to do so, in their 17th century-frame of mind it wouldn’t have made any difference: they would have killed her nonetheless, because all women trying to get out of Yoshiwara were ordered to be killed immediately. Regardless.
    Conclusion: the only choice the man had was either bring her to “a” whorehouse, or let her be killed by the guards. Nothing else. As long as you won’t understand that, you won’t understand the basic problematic of this manga.

    Anonymous November 10, 2016 4:20 pm
    Indeed, your ideas about manners and mine are quite different, I noticed that :-P . As I said, people's manners tell you a lot about them, and in your case it' not very flattering. Soit, so be it.As for the man... Cyrano

    And you forget at he didn't even fucking tell her anything. It's okay if he takes her to a whorehouse but after he's told her about the situation, calmed her down and explain it to her why they need to survived. At the very least don't leave her in the dark while you take the money and just leave. And mr nitpicky sire, you sure know how to leave this entire chunk out for your so called "historical correctness" weeb.

    Anonymous November 10, 2016 4:22 pm
    And you forget at he didn't even fucking tell her anything. It's okay if he takes her to a whorehouse but after he's told her about the situation, calmed her down and explain it to her why they need to survived... @Anonymous

    Or perhaps u think women don't deserve to even have the right to have proper explanation and decide? Considering this is a modern man we're talking about.

    Cyrano November 14, 2016 6:52 pm

    He didn't tell her anything, indeed, but that doesn't mean I told the mangaka to do that, does it? You seem to blame me for everything that you don't like about this manga... I suggest you write the author a big letter (full of abuse, of course), along with all the problems you have with her story. And find out what plans she has with her characters! I have no idea what they are.
    My guess is she won't even answer, since Japanese are extremely polite people who expect others to be so as well. Not many people have as much patience with vituperative girls as I.

    As far as historic info goes, My guess is the guy-character didn't tell her he was going to take her to a whorehouse because he supposed she knew that... since there weren't any other houses but brothels in that place, and every Japanese learns that in History class. So not only the characters (supposed to be Japanese) but also the readers (in first instance all Japanese) are supposed to know it.
    Why he didn't tell her he got money for her? Because it didn't matter, I told you several times this pricemoney was a mere formality and the investment the (best) brothels put into a promising girl they wanted to educate into becoming a successful courtesan, outweighed by tons the price the parents got for their daughter.
    And, again until you finally read it: debt or no debt, a girl in Yoshiwara never got to decide anything about her own fate or future, never could do but what was decided about her by others: her parents, the people who sold her (often a middle man), and the people who baught her. Everybody but she. And she NEVER got out... (do I repeat myself? Yes, and not even a bit, but it's your fault). Whether she's from the future or not, she's supposed do know that, so does the guy, and so does the initial public who's reading the manga!
    Now stop turning it into a story it isn't, stop blaming me for a manga I didn't write, and before everything: stop use verbal abuse by means of arguments, I tell you... it doesn't work anyway.

    Anonymous November 15, 2016 9:31 am
    He didn't tell her anything, indeed, but that doesn't mean I told the mangaka to do that, does it? You seem to blame me for everything that you don't like about this manga... I suggest you write the author a b... Cyrano

    only u see verbal abuse when its convenient for u. its like u never got cussed at by anyone online (how privileged of u, old man) And best way to twist my words, make it seem like I'm faulting u for writing it. Logic. Does ur brain register anything except what I'm sayin? I'm not mad at u cos u wrote the story (cos u didnt) I'm just pissed that you went around implying its okay to view this plot as a perfectly romantic plot cos its "historically correct" when literally ur mind deleted what I clearly pointed out to u? What kind of defense are you giving me? Oh, whatever u pointed out is false because I didn't tell the author to write it. Its obvious u didnt tell him or her to write it, and its obvious u didn't write smthg like this. Also, did u just try to guess my gender?

    "Whether she's from the future or not, she's supposed do know that," yes indeed, its totally customary for all future japanese women to be well prepared to time slip into ancient japan and not need any sign of explanation from someone who is clearly from her time. And its totally expected that they fall in love with the man that didn't give them any explanation even though they are from the same time zone and the very basic courtesy that any human being could do is... give some explanation.

    "Why he didn't tell her he got money for her? Because it didn't matter" yes if ur talking about a guy from ancient japan and not someone from the present time. Thats just shady as hell for a guy who time slipped. For an important thing like taking someone he clearly knows is not from this time, he sure have no qualms about leaving her in the dark, taking her money, making her his lover and still not telling her until she finds out herself. even then he still continues to keep secrets. But its not like ur gonna register it so whats the point.

    Well from what I know, you're the only one thinking this. So keep yourself in your own illusion old man. Hope there'll be a place in heaven to entertain that

    Cyrano November 16, 2016 12:01 am

    Well, almost 99% of the readers on this site are girls, so I address everyone as miss or girl or young lady until they would tell me otherwise; but so far I haven't met anyone who did that. And even if I know very well that many young people of today find verbal abuse totally normal, you can't stop me nor blame me for finding it a big put-off, because it is.

    I am not responsible for the story of some other comic writer/drawer, and I don't make any judgements on the behavior of the characters therein: all I do is endlessly repeat that the things those characters do, EVEN IF THEY ARE FROM THE PRESENT, still would be considered normal by the readers, if they were Japanese, because they would know that in Yoshiwara this behavior would be considered normal. In Japan, today as well as allways, this particular part of Edo History is common knowledge to everybody. They're not proud of it, but neither are we of the lesser pleasant circumstances of our own pasts.
    Of course it is wrong, seen in view of 21st-century standards, to force people into prostitution, everybody agrees with that. But still, it did happen everywhere in the past (not to mention the present, in many places), and in Japan in the 17th and 18th century it did happen in such districts, strictly regulated by the government. And all Japanese people know that. Whether the two antagonists in this story are from the present doesn't change the way things were done several centuries ago.

    The reason why this guy doesn't tell the girl he recieved money for her from the Brothel-owners, is unknown to me, since I am not the author. I can only guess that it could be because -as I said a million times already- this money was considered unimportant, a mere formality, and that she probably assumed herself that he got money for her, since that too is something everybody knows in Japan, today. Only to western people that money seems to be a big issue. Not in Japan. And I tell you, it never was a fortune... Girls weren't sold their weight in gold in Yoshiwara, since even a very pretty girl could turn out to be a liability or a dissappointment to those who baught her. The investment on the part of the owners of the houses was much, much higher than what they payed for the girl, who was to be seen as "raw material", that had to be formed and educated for many years before she could start earning a single yen for her employer. And still, there was the risk she could turn out not gifted enough, or get sick and die or stay disfigured by smallpocks or that kind of thing; so they could hardly afford to pay a fortune to everybody who came to offer a little girl (for it happened quite rarely they took in an almost grown-up girl, like it is in this manga; the reality was the parents usuall sold their daughters very young, sometimes as babies. If they were so poor they couldn't feed her, even selling her to a brothel was better than let her starve...) but it was never much. Harly worth making a fuss over it.
    Certainly Japanese parents wouldn't sell their children if they only to get some money! Japanese always loved their children a lot. Even the girls, contrary to China, where daughters were considered a burden you had to get rid of as fast as you could.
    So, these MAY be the reasons why the guy didn't mention it to her: because it was probably peanuts, because she probably knew it anyhow, and because maybe he is going to use it to save her in the rest of the story, who knows? The manga isn't completed.
    That can be the reasons, seen from a Historic point of view. If the mangaka has other plans, I don't know of them. History's the only view I'm using, how else do you want me to look at it and give you answers? I'm not the mangaka. If you really want to know what she's planning, if you find it so important, you must ask her.
    I suggest you don't get yourself so worked up over a manga. I told you already: it's hardly worth it. Or why not choose an other to read? There are plenty, no?

    Ribura November 27, 2016 11:42 am
    Well, almost 99% of the readers on this site are girls, so I address everyone as miss or girl or young lady until they would tell me otherwise; but so far I haven't met anyone who did that. And even if I know v... Cyrano

    Thanks for the info @Cyrano (you are amazing putting up with those two people who apparently have incredibly strong feelings about their interpretation of that era;; .)

    Cyrano November 28, 2016 12:25 am

    heheheheh... thanks.
    I'm amazed something else actually had the stamina to follow this dispute!
    In Dutch, we have this idiom "it's a deaf-man's-conversation".
    I sometimes had the feeling this was it. I think youths of today don't get taught to debate in school anymore, else they would have known becoming emotional is the first no-no in this art! We used to do role-plays about hot topics in 3rd year senior high school, and as soon as anyone started vituperating, he/she was immediately disqualified. Gotta keep your cool when debating, else your out!
    Aside of that, History is reality; and moral standards happen to change over the centuries. they just do. No use judging 17th-century situations by 21st-century moral standards!
    And third: comics are literature. When you don't agree with the moral content of the story someone wrote, there is no use whatsoever ranting over how bad it is; especially not against somebody ELSE than the author... ne? ╮( ̄▽ ̄)╭

    :U April 27, 2017 4:08 am
    No, no, no, you guys don't understand the script! Ayame timelapsed INTO Yoshiwara district, and there was nothing else to do BUT prostitution for women, there! Shouhei had no other choice: all he could do was t... Cyrano

    I have to say, I did read through this whole thing, and as much as I dislike bringing up old threads I feel like I have to defend the posters main point as being valid, in my opinion of course. Shouhei was a jerk and Ayame's actions didn't seem to match up with the story we were presented.

    You implied somewhere in all this (correct me if I'm wrong, it was a very long post) that they both kind of knew what was up in a famous district like Yoshiwara. And maybe the modern woman should bone up on her brothel district history, I don't know, but Ayame clearly didn't know wtf or where tf or what being in the Yoshiwara district implied except that it was a brothel. It's right there in the first chapter. Shouhei brings her to the brothel, takes the money and looks grim. Ayame is like 'what, no. I'm not working at a brothel lmao'... and then she does like 'oh well'. While one could say the writing is rushed so we should cut some slack on characterization, that is up to the reviewer to decide to do. No reviewer of the works should be required into reading between the lines and assuming the character is just laid back and hilariously chill about being sold into sexual slavery. We don't cut authors of novels slack for weak characters, we don't cut B-movies slack for being cheap and hokey, people shouldn't be required to cut slack just cause it's a silly silly manga that 'shouldn't be taken seriously' despite the fact that all media is created and intended to garner a reaction from people thereby making reactions (whether the media is silly or not) the intended purpose. But I'm getting off topic!
    The authors decision to make Ayame in chapter one seem to take this whole situation rather lightly, while being their creative decision, comes at the price of Ayame being taken as/seeming to be stupid.
    You also said somewhere up there that a woman would be killed if she were to attempt to leave. Which if that's what went down, ok, but Ayame also clearly didn't know that. Chapter 1 page 18, lmao, sorry I'm all riled up now. She seems to think she has the freedom to leave, get lost, and have a tough time eating mushrooms or something. Not that she'd die at the gate for trying to leave which would make for a short manga. Lack of information is what I notice most of the reviewers getting mad about. Because Ayame suffered from it and because of it. Give her the option to get hysterical and run out and get killed, give her the option to ask to go to a good brothel. If Shouhei knew she was from the future, as he was from the future, he should have known that maybe people don't just automatically know what Yoshiwara implied. In fact, you could see it on his face after he sold her that she knew not one thing about what was happening or going to happen to her. He had the chance to give her even two basic facts (you are going to a brothel, the other choice is getting killed at the gate). Nice and simple. His omission of those bits of information took her choice away and whether you're a man or a woman the idea of that is frightening. Shouhei is a jerk. And while I want to get onto the sex having aspect, let's get to Shouhei.

    Shouhei also pretends that he had no idea what would happen to her when he came back to do her hair. That's effed up, ok, and the only reason for the lie is to cover up his own guilt. He took the money, he knew what was going to happen to her, and he walks in like 'wow, why are you dressed like that what a shocker I totally thought they would help you'. His dialogue and mannerism isn't of a man who wishes her situation was different, he just wants someone from the future to be there with him (but that's what I could glean from the writing, especially the line about just being alive). I would actually argue that his characterization in his reactions are more believable than Ayame's and I applaud the mangaka that... but that doesn't mean his characterization doesn't make him seem like a jerk because of the whole 'omission', the pretending like he didn't know what was up and desperation to have someone else who is out of time like him here with him. While all of those things can be borne of desperation can we at least agree it was a crappy thing of him to do, and then not even tell her he's from the future. He has the comfort in chapter one of knowing he isn't alone. And if Ayame wasn't written so lackadaisically, in a more realistic character she would have desperately wanted that comfort too, but he didn't provide it. So, again... historic accuracy be darned, he was still a jerk for lying to her and taking away her right to choose (she might have even chosen to be in the brothel anyways, for pity's sake! But he didn't even give her the chance). Some people would define that as being a jerk, and I would have to agree. ...additionally, because in these short chapters he still feels more fleshed out despite his motivation being 'suddenly in love/lust' and she's just there the whole manga feels unbalanced.

    And that brings me to the sex. Everyone is pissed because of all of those reasons listed above, and probably the main poster of this particular thread is too. Them having sex was like... the icing on the cake. Though, I will say Ayame wasn't stupid choosing to have sex with him, she was lied to by him and literally didn't know he sold her. Shouhei took advantage of her lack of knowledge that might have changed her perceptions of him.

    I understand the historical aspects are neat, but it being historically aware doesn't mean that the characters could not still be defined as stupid or being a jerk just because of the time period and place they were sent to. They both have modern sensibilities, or had in Shouhei's case, and frankly even if they didn't the reviewers can and still will react negatively. Anyways, sorry for the long post.

    Cyrano April 27, 2017 5:03 pm

    Indeed. My historic explanation is in no way aiming to justify neither the morality of the characters, nor the quality of the plot. All I did was explaining over and over again that women couldn't do anything else but be prostitutes in Yoshiwara, so her being one was totally obvious, since there was no way they could get out anyway.
    Why the author didn't make it clear in the first chapters what the two 20th-century-characters knew or not about that era, I don't know. Maybe I would have done it differently; but I didn't write the story.
    All I know is the historic reality. And that is what I tried to make clear, over and over and over... and over... (⌒▽⌒)

    :U April 28, 2017 3:42 am
    Indeed. My historic explanation is in no way aiming to justify neither the morality of the characters, nor the quality of the plot. All I did was explaining over and over again that women couldn't do anything e... Cyrano

    Yeah, I got that bit and do respect and understand that historical tidbit. I was more responding to the initial post of Shouhei being a jerk or not and Ayame being stupid or not and explaining why people might be seeing them as such just as I did :D~

    And yeah, I felt like the author could have and should have done a better job in developing Ayame's character a little at least. It would have strengthened the plot and made her character a little more solid (like, she can still be silly and scatterbrained, but there is also a bare minimum of character development needed so she doesn't tip the scale from silly into 'is she ok, did she hit her head..?'). Well, anyways... It is a shame since the plot seemed interesting is all.

    Cyrano April 28, 2017 9:43 pm

    there are some 'time lapse'-manga that are better, I have met several. For instance there's "doctor Jin", about a surgeon suddenly lapsing into History, Meiji era as well, or just before, actually; and then there's "Nobunaga no chef" about a cook lapsing into the 16th century, just before the wars that led to the Edo Era. Both very good. And then there's also "Ashigaaru", about a little girl, 14 or 15, who lapses into History during war time. That one is not only well drawn and enthralling, but very funny to boot! Unfortunately, even if the mangaka has finished about 20 volumes by now, only the 2 first are translated, and we're waiting for ever for someone to translate it. It's really good.
    This here mangaka, I think, is empasizing more on drawing geisha and oiran with their gorgeous robes and hairstyles, rather than giving her characters solid psychological depth. Not every manga-reader expects that from a mangaka, anyway; it's not a novel, after all.